Team ZR-1
I have a request to make, and I realize you are typing with two fingers, but
Can you turn all of your acronyms, initials and abbreviations into real words. You use a lot of jargin that is not common to my education so I struggle to understand your point of view.

 

1997_eldorado, Team ZR-1
Okay I think we are all a little frustrated with the results of this testing so far. But I did extensive research on the readings I show above.

• There was no Freeze Frame data available in the system.
• Ambient temperature is similar to Ambient light in photography. Ambient light in a room is the light in the room without any photo lamps or flashes from a camera. At different times of the day you could expect the Ambient light in the room to be different. Same thing for the Ambient temperature in an engine. At different places in the engine the ambient temperature will be high. Like in the combustion chamber, or the area around the combustion chamber. So, while the water is at 129 the area around the combustion chamber might be considerable warmer, like 237 degrees.
• Load is not what you're thinking. You're thinking I have to be wide open in passing gear to have 100% load. Not true.
  engine - Can 100% calculated load be reached in neutral? - Motor Vehicle Maintenance & Repair Stack Exchange
• I wanted to get a fresh set of fail codes, but I notice something else, when I was trying to delete the fail codes in the system, I selected a code to delete, and the fuel gauge would slowly rise to 1/2 tank and then return back to a reading of very low or empty. I wasn't sure how much gas was in the car because the fuel gauge quit working, but if you look at the above codes it says the fuel level is about 50%. Why isn't the gauge showing the correct fuel level?

 

well i don't know much but that looks like a snapshot of data
all these cars store a snapshot of data when fault codes are set
i'm not that simple that i don't understand ambient and i have my doubts that the data presented is reliable.
load = how hard the engine is working which at idle isn't zero.....100% = unreliable results

i'll repeat this, the fuel gauge gets data on the class 2 line....... so it seems to me that the class 2 issues are still present.

this adventure seems to be running in circles.
you seem to know what direction you need to go so i will watch the progress

 

We are all confused about why these other codes take priority over the no start issue. If you start it once in a while you might get a decent voltage reading and other things may start working. I realize the gas pedal does need to be sorted out now since you replaced it. Keep plugging away.

I would have had my SRX out by now if I wouldn't have gotten injured 3 weeks ago. I will be tinkering on it in a couple weeks.

 

Guys I think you misinterpreted my words. I didnt abandone anything. I just wanted to take a time out and use the code reader to see if we were making any progress. I cleaned up a lot of ground points and I just wanted to see if it made a difference. It apparently did make a difference. The U codes are all gone. So while I had the new codes I just wanted to dig into them to see what the new codes were trying to tell us.
The new codes were pointing at the Throttle Body as being a problem. Well that was not news for me, the original codes I read many moons ago said there was a problem with the Throttle body, so I simply said "Lets do it".
Now that I replaced the throttle body, I would like to read the codes again to see if I have made any improvements.

 

In post 444 I ask for help interpreting some comments. I dont think it was an outrageous request, since you guys told me to tell you when I don't understand...

 

They seem to be commonly used acromyns. If you let us know which ones you don't recognize, somebody will jump in and define it.

 

I was asking for someone to re-write it without the acronyms. Spell each word out. If you look at most of my posts I go to great trouble to spell each word out so there is no room for a misunderstanding.
I'm sure he is trying to help, but if I have to guess what he is trying to say it is not really helpful. I apologize if that sounds drastic, but I'm just trying to be honest with you.

 

This is my example of Acronyms

Could not find a definition for TAC. I replaced about 17 acronyms. Does this commentary still make sense?
For one, as many times as battery was disconnected the problem could simply be that the Throttle Position Sensor is required to do a relearn process for it as

Depending on if the gas pedal has 2 or 3 pots, GM has to do triple cross-checking that drive by wire has not gone faulty and cause the vehicle to go wacko and cause a crash.

So if 2 pots Accelerator Pedal Position, when off the gas pedal for example, one pot would report around 0 volts where the other pot shows 5 volts.
As stepping on pedal the 1 pot would be going from 0 to 5 volts (when pedal is to floor /Wide open Throttle
\where pot 2 is going from 5 to zero volts
This allows TAC (Could not find a definition for TAC),Drive by Wire, to do a compare and to verify reading the Throttle Position Sensor is also changing voltage output and TAC (Could not find a definition for TAC) is doing compares to assure all is good

If the values of compare are out of specs than the PCM (Engine Control Module) forces PCM (Engine Control Module) to go into limp mode

It will not allow the engine NOT to start and TAC (Could not find a definition for TAC) takes over and only allows a Throttle Position Sensor angle like 20% and max speed of like 20 MPH
This is done to allow the driver to get home safely but at those lower speeds.

Throttle body itself is not going to cause Drive by Wire to screwup, the Throttle Position Sensor attached to it could, or the Drive by Wire motor attached to Throttle Body.
Or again if wiring problems but since the OP has not complained of limp mode when driving the car then TAC (Could Not find Definition for TAC) must be OK
BUT if Throttle Position Sensor has not been relearned, sync'd with PCM (Engine Control Module) then it could be reporting TB butterfly at xx angle but Accelerator Pedal Position states otherwise

New Throttle Body alone will not fix this, nor prevent PCM (Engine Control Module) sending out the control of start relay be referenced to ground to negative of that relays coil

Again shows why a decent OBD-II scanner is required to be simple to look at Accelerator Pedal Position and Throttle Position Sensor and see if they agree with the Throttle Body butterfly angle or not

Either way, I would do the GM relearn/sync process for Throttle Position Sensor just to get that out of the DTCs tripping

In the end that maybe a different issue but not why starter relays coil is not getting the control ground

That is enough 2 finger typing for me .

 

Throttle Actuator Controller (TAC) (could be a controller of its own or part of the PCM, depending on model and year

This would have been seen if looking at the wiring schematics for the gas pedal as to where it connects to as stated in GM service manual

I.e, DBW, not really going to type drive by wire or TAC each time

 

What happens when the electronic throttle control goes bad?

With poor electrical connectivity, you'll experience unpredictable electrical signals that can confuse you. The throttle body will relay false information to the vehicle's computer. This is a serious issue because it will cause the fuel-air mixture not to be in the correct proportions.

 

Check engine light

The check engine light can indicate many issues within a car including a faulty throttle body. In more modern cars, an electronic throttle control (ETC) constantly monitors throttle body performance. Any problem detected with it will turn on the check engine light.

 

"We are all confused about why these other codes take priority over the no start issue. If you start it once in a while you might get a decent voltage reading and other things may start working. I realize the gas pedal does need to be sorted out now since you replaced it. Keep plugging away. "

• I was looking back over the comments you guys have made and I don't see any instructions or testing you asked for that I did not complete. Did I miss something? The last thing you ask me to do was try to ground the Starter Relay and try to start the car.

 

The last thing you ask me to do was try to ground the Starter Relay and try to start the car

i asked you to check continuity between the relay coil ground and a ground point when the key in crank position. do you know if the relay gets a ground signal from the ecm?
we also asked you to check the relay coil to the ecm.....engine control module, yellow control wire do you know if the wire between the two is good?
plenty of wiring diagrams have been given.
then if we go way back near the beginning of the 400+ posts i mentioned jumping the relay to test that and it took forever to finally get a result after asking multiple times.
i think many have tried and patience is likely running out
probably not many threads that go so long without results. we should probably be making some donations for the bandwidth we've burned up

all along you are trying to chase other issues that aren't going to help the no start issue....when you can turn the key and start the car then move on to other problems otherwise i think it's a waste of peoples time to try and resolve this as we are jumping from one place to another

 

• 1997_eldorado, Team ZR-1
• I know this has taken a while and I respect your patience. I have been plagued with issues outside this topic of repair. I don't want to bore you with my personal crap. But since you were kind enough to provide a comprehensive list, I can get started on it right away.
• i asked you to check continuity between the relay coil ground and a ground point when the key in crank position.
• The Relay has no ground point, per se, according to the attached video. One side is a control (magnet side) (pin 85 and 86) and the other side is a switch(Pin 87 and 30) that carries the load. When you send power thru the control side it closes the switch on the other side. Closing the switch sends power to the starter. If you can give me a pin number that you say is a ground, I can perform the test.
• One of the things you asked me to do was Put a strand of wire into the pin 87 and run it to the ground, then try to start the engine. That to me is a dead short. Since we performed that test we lost the click at the starter. I think we blew somethig out.
• do you know if the relay gets a ground signal from the ecm?
• After thinking about this request, I think the relay is only getting power from the ECM. The ground is at the starter
• 
  
• we also asked you to check the relay coil to the ecm.....engine control module, yellow control wire do you know if the wire between the two is good?
• plenty of wiring diagrams have been given.
• then if we go way back near the beginning of the 400+ posts i mentioned jumping the relay to test that and it took forever to finally get a result after asking multiple times.

 

The Relay has no ground point, per se, according to the attached video

Wrong.......the relay coil needs a positive and negative to energize the coil

power thru the control side

coil has positive at all times or when key is on and waits for ground signal from ecm

Put a strand of wire into the pin 87 and run it to the ground, then try to start the engine

believe he was referring to the ground side of the coil

After thinking about this request, I think the relay is only getting power from the ECM.

answered above and can be seen in schematics/wiring diagrams

The ground is at the starter

the starter requires a ground and a positive. it also has a solenoid signal line

the ground is the body of the starter
positive line.....hot at all times
solenoid signal line
solenoid signal is sent thru that relay on the switch side.

hope i've covered this correctly

also, check your fuses again to be sure they are still ok because if you did cause a short it should have taken out a fuse

 

You need to test the pin that relay plugs into that is the ground of relay coil
Without ign key ON, that should show no and open with OHM meter

• With the ignition key in an "OFF" position Testing the #14 pin on C1 to the #87 slot on the relay, it tests OL.
• Have to get my wife to help me test the same pins when the key is in the Crank position. I believe we tested it incorrectly last time. Lets hope we didnt blow anything out.This
• This is a flawed test I am attempting. I cant test the ECM output if C1 is not plugged into the ECM. So is there another way to perform the test?

and when someone cranks the engine, you look to see if the pin now OHMs out to ground

IF NOT you need to test the yellow wire to pin 14 of ECM connector, and the wiring pins to assure it end to end is good,
IF good and not showing going to ground then problem is with the ECM or the 2 class2 purple wires of same connector

• And of course I started the car just to see if it still starts.
• This might be a minor thing but I noticed that when I put the key in the ignition and attempt to start the car with the key, I have to remove the key with a tool. When I start the car by crossing the slots in the Relay the key comes right out of the ignition correctly without a tool. Is that a usable symptom?

 

How about this one 1997_eldorado

• With the ignition key in an "OFF" position Testing the #14 pin on C1 to the #87 slot on the relay, it tests OL.
• Have to get my wife to help me test the same pins when the key is in the Crank position. I believe we tested it incorrectly last time. Lets hope we didnt blow anything out.This
• This is a flawed test I am attempting. I cant test the ECM output if C1 is not plugged into the ECM. So is there another way to perform the test?

 

*******check all fuses again to make sure nothing prior has blown them
one end of tester to ground point, other end of tester to ground of relay coil, set tester to continuity and turn key to crank position.
should have continuity if system working correctly. do not stab the test probe into the relay hole as that will cause the contacts to be spread open and may not make proper connection to the relay when reinstalled. use a small piece of wire
with limited test equipment this may end up being a situation where you need to call in a professional or at least someone who has the test equipment.
wiring in today's cars is complex

 

1997_eldorado
Just to be sure:
Put one end of tester to ground point, (The Block or frame) Put the other end of tester to (The coil side, should be pin 87) ground of relay coil, set tester to continuity and turn key to crank position.
I use a needle on one probe and a paper clip on the other.
Let me know if you agree

 

i believe the relay coil is 85 and 86 not sure which corresponds to the relay coil ground.
87 and 30 are the switch side when you jump 30 and 87 you are just making a 12 volt connection without the realy......i don't have the drawings handy. check 86 and 85 for 12 volts you want the one that doesn't have 12 volts that should be the coil ground
if no continuity when in crank position = no ground signal from ecm
then you will need to make sure the wire from the ecm to the relay coil is good.

 

Spent the day checking fuses and relays. Couldn't get to the passenger side until I was able to move the car
Everything checked out good. All related fuses and relays were working

 

1997_eldorado
Checking front fuses and I noticed some were lighting but you had to nudge them to get a light. I replaced them and got the click on the starter back when you try to start with the key. I must have damaged a pin.
That's good news.

 

get yourself a can of electronic contact cleaner

 

1997_eldorado
I'm just glad to take a big step forward. I have the electronic contact cleaner but I'm hesitant to spray into the fuse box.
Can't help feeling a little shocked to see a loose fitting fuse would cause a problem. They are usually a tight fit.

 

disconnect the battery before spraying with cleaner than leave disconnected until dry
i find these little fuses to be a pain

 

1997_eldorado
Well since I managed to get a click at the starter, we jumped a few steps forward. I think we can assume the relay is now working again
What is the next logical step. I still have a

• Check Engine light on
• The Traction Control Light on
• Gas Gauge doesnt work.
• car wont start with key

NEW EDIT

• Cleaned all fuses with electronic cleaner.
• Not much change except we know their Cleaned