Anyone else think the whole BMW comparison thing Cadillac is doing is a bit silly. Is Cadillac "reinventing" itself as a good enough car brand to BMW. I don't like it at all. I love Cadillac and will always enjoy V models, but please don't compare to level of detail they are doing on their website page for the ATS-V and CTS-V. I understand the value of comparison, but too much. If they really wanted to copy BMW, they should of stolen the idrive system and higher resale value. But maybe because they have moved to NYC they can dare greatly, like trying to drive that V around the streets of NY.
ATS-V/CTS-V -M3/M5 Comparison
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I want Cadillac to spend billions and steal the Ultimate Driving Machine moniker from BMW since now BMW makes floaty, disconnected sedans...unless you get a sport package. Their base cars are garbage.
Whereas all new Cadillac sedans have handling in their DNA, even base models...
Whereas all new Cadillac sedans have handling in their DNA, even base models...
I totally disagree with the OP. Cadillac is "out BMW-ing" BMW. Most of their "sport" packages are cosmetic only, only when you ante up for a full-blown M do you get something even in contention for the "ultimate driving machine", and they cost a lot more than anything with a "V" on it when equipped similarly.
IDrive has more than its share of detractors. The story has been the same as CUE ... Reviewers who never spend any time with it, and don't set it up to their tastes say its bad ... Owners who use it all the time say it's fine.
But last and most important, how else are they going to get people shopping German to take a test drive without making the comparison?
IDrive has more than its share of detractors. The story has been the same as CUE ... Reviewers who never spend any time with it, and don't set it up to their tastes say its bad ... Owners who use it all the time say it's fine.
But last and most important, how else are they going to get people shopping German to take a test drive without making the comparison?
You can regularly catch my V's in NYC. Two months ago, I was the one drifting around the entire Columbus Circle before dinner. Take it from me, the new generation V's will be quite comfortable (and dominant) in any city.
If you don't completely think Caddy is doing this as well as BMW, then you should buy BMW cars.
If you don't completely think Caddy is doing this as well as BMW, then you should buy BMW cars.
No, you have a benchmark. Then you try to top it. And they did.
'16 CTS V-Sport Black/'16 CTS Luxury w/V-Sport Pkg White
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You are not a leader until someone follows you right now BMW is the leader..Cadillac identified that and now that is the goal to beat....once this is achieved Cadillac in its new leadership position will be the one being compared to instead of doing the comparing.....this will only happen one step at a time it wasn't overnight for bmw and it won't be for cadillac
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Like others have said, BMWs of today are not much a benchmark. Try to match their performance may be a downgrade. There are much better cars to match.
Gone; ‘09 V, ‘13 V coupe. Curr; ‘14 PG Vsport prem w/Kona interior
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I agree with POW. Like it or not BMW is still a benchmark brand. The last generation and next CTS V were developed, in part, using the M5 as a performance benchmark.
The M cars are still all that.
I'm currently in an E92 M3, and am about to put my order in for an F80 M3... however, the ATS-V has the potential to have me change my mind. Cadillac's got a few things going for them here. Styling is of course subjective, but exterior styling is Best in class for the ATS-V. I'm not crazy about the interior - because I prefer the more horizontal dash layouts to Cadillac's more 'vertical' style, but again, that's subjective.
For the drive... Look's like Cadillac brought the power, and the ATS is well known to be a better drive than the 3 series. Now the M3 is a pretty big jump up from the base 3 series, especially this time around with the rear suspension directly bolted to the chassis, but I'm pretty optimistic on the ATS-V.
The things that bother me: Yes, it's CUE and other tech stuff. I haven't done a point-by-point comparo, but BMW looks to offer a lot more here. A lot of this stuff seems petty on a performance car, but it's going to be my daily driver too, and this is the stuff you interact with the most.
Most egregious failure: the gauge cluster. Again, it seems petty, but you'll look at it all the time. Has NO business in a car like this. It looks like somebody found an instructables on how to hack a 1 x 4" screen into the gauges from a 98 Silverado with a dremel. Cadillac should be embarrassed here. To me, it's not even completely below this kind of car, but it is one of the worst looking panels in any car today. There are economy cars with better looking gauge clusters. Just so, so bad.
Most of all, the pricing. It's just too close to the M3's pricing, for a car that just doesn't look like it delivers as much. The crappy gauges and CUE are going to make it sting to think I could have BMW's much nicer interior to interact with every day. Maybe the car drives enough better to nullify that - we'll have to wait and see. I think, if you want to dethrone the king, you need to offer the same for less money, or for this kind of money, a lot more product.
I predict the real thing that will kill this is the dealers. I live in Houston, so for one, discounts will be rare (although M3s can be found discounted already). These GM dealers will smell blood and charge a market adjustment for sure. Most will probably try to talk me out of ordering (even though I'm super particular) because "we've got a great CTS right here...". Their desperation to have me drive off in a new vehicle that day - and pay a premium for it will be depressing.
But it's such a great looking car, and looks to be such a great drive... I'm hanging in there until I know otherwise.
For the drive... Look's like Cadillac brought the power, and the ATS is well known to be a better drive than the 3 series. Now the M3 is a pretty big jump up from the base 3 series, especially this time around with the rear suspension directly bolted to the chassis, but I'm pretty optimistic on the ATS-V.
The things that bother me: Yes, it's CUE and other tech stuff. I haven't done a point-by-point comparo, but BMW looks to offer a lot more here. A lot of this stuff seems petty on a performance car, but it's going to be my daily driver too, and this is the stuff you interact with the most.
Most egregious failure: the gauge cluster. Again, it seems petty, but you'll look at it all the time. Has NO business in a car like this. It looks like somebody found an instructables on how to hack a 1 x 4" screen into the gauges from a 98 Silverado with a dremel. Cadillac should be embarrassed here. To me, it's not even completely below this kind of car, but it is one of the worst looking panels in any car today. There are economy cars with better looking gauge clusters. Just so, so bad.
Most of all, the pricing. It's just too close to the M3's pricing, for a car that just doesn't look like it delivers as much. The crappy gauges and CUE are going to make it sting to think I could have BMW's much nicer interior to interact with every day. Maybe the car drives enough better to nullify that - we'll have to wait and see. I think, if you want to dethrone the king, you need to offer the same for less money, or for this kind of money, a lot more product.
I predict the real thing that will kill this is the dealers. I live in Houston, so for one, discounts will be rare (although M3s can be found discounted already). These GM dealers will smell blood and charge a market adjustment for sure. Most will probably try to talk me out of ordering (even though I'm super particular) because "we've got a great CTS right here...". Their desperation to have me drive off in a new vehicle that day - and pay a premium for it will be depressing.
But it's such a great looking car, and looks to be such a great drive... I'm hanging in there until I know otherwise.
'16 CTS V-Sport Black/'16 CTS Luxury w/V-Sport Pkg White
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Swancoat, you're on point on some things and off on others:
cluster: agreed
Tech: CUE - pros-nice features and tech (WiFi, SMS) really easy to use once you've played with it /cons- buggy (not sure about 2016 version could be improved) needs knobs (touch only interface is a fail in a moving environment), piano black SUCKS!!! SO bad i think it statically attracts dust/Performance Data recorder(w/Valet mode) is really awesome/phone app for for car is sweet i use mine daily
Suspension: ATS-V subframe has seen similiar bracing and is using metal articulating joints no bushings, these and other chassis improvements are on top of the class leading stiff chassis
Price: both start at similar pricing, but it takes $9K plus to level the BMW to ATS standard equipment which is the value proposition you asked for
and by far the biggest PRO is:
the fact we're even having this conversation !!!!! BMW should be UPSET!!! their heart and soul buyer of one of the most popular sports cars/sedans in the world is saying Cadillac in the same breath as them...that alone is a win .......that people actually know their cars are outperformed in handling...HANDLING!!! BMW's forte!!! is another win.....the only thing BMW can hang their hat on is BMW's interior went to private preparatory and finishing school and Cadillac interior went to public school, BMW interior is from Savile Row and Caddys from Mens Wearhouse
cluster: agreed
Tech: CUE - pros-nice features and tech (WiFi, SMS) really easy to use once you've played with it /cons- buggy (not sure about 2016 version could be improved) needs knobs (touch only interface is a fail in a moving environment), piano black SUCKS!!! SO bad i think it statically attracts dust/Performance Data recorder(w/Valet mode) is really awesome/phone app for for car is sweet i use mine daily
Suspension: ATS-V subframe has seen similiar bracing and is using metal articulating joints no bushings, these and other chassis improvements are on top of the class leading stiff chassis
Price: both start at similar pricing, but it takes $9K plus to level the BMW to ATS standard equipment which is the value proposition you asked for
and by far the biggest PRO is:
the fact we're even having this conversation !!!!! BMW should be UPSET!!! their heart and soul buyer of one of the most popular sports cars/sedans in the world is saying Cadillac in the same breath as them...that alone is a win .......that people actually know their cars are outperformed in handling...HANDLING!!! BMW's forte!!! is another win.....the only thing BMW can hang their hat on is BMW's interior went to private preparatory and finishing school and Cadillac interior went to public school, BMW interior is from Savile Row and Caddys from Mens Wearhouse
It's a win for sure. The M3 has an available 'top down' camera setup that I like a lot, and also a speed limit reading cam to display speed limit in the HUD. From some photos, it looks like ATS has the ability to display that as well, but I'd like to know where the data comes from. My Audi has it and gets it from the Nav database, and it is not always accurate (and will become dated). Camera reading the signs seems like a better way, but super minor issue overall.
Price - I haven't had a chance to fully build and price a car yet, but I see people saying it can get close to 80. I built a heavily optioned M3 to 79, so if that's true it doesn't compare that well. I generally support J deN's point on pricing the cars into the league he wants to compete in, but Caddy is the challenger, not the incumbent. If you want to sell a car for M3 money to M3 buyers it will have to deliver more.
Price - I haven't had a chance to fully build and price a car yet, but I see people saying it can get close to 80. I built a heavily optioned M3 to 79, so if that's true it doesn't compare that well. I generally support J deN's point on pricing the cars into the league he wants to compete in, but Caddy is the challenger, not the incumbent. If you want to sell a car for M3 money to M3 buyers it will have to deliver more.
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For last generation's M3 and CTS-V I'd slightly give it to BMW. This time around Cadillac won with the ATS-V.
Considering no one's really driven or tested the ATS-V yet, that's a pretty bold statement.
From the photos and specs I can see on line (and again, I haven't driven or seen it in person yet either, but I have driven the F80 M3), there's very little that Cadillac has over the M3 that is clearly superior (looks, stated power, and possibly price) yet several places where the M3 is clearly better than the Cadillac (available tech and options, fit/finish/build quality, plus an established standard of performance that Cadillac as the incumbent has to acknowledge as something to overcome).
Power is a bit of a concern here. Cadillac appears to have a significant edge... but the M3 punches well above its weight performance wise, given what the stated power is. Also, BMW has spent a lot of effort in increasing the throttle response of a turbocharged car. I've heard nothing on this front from Cadillac, but I hope they've done something similar. That will impact the enjoyment of the car significantly.
Certainly ridiculous at this stage to say that Cadillac won. Equally ridiculous to say BMW has won. Let's get this ATS-V onto some lots and get some seat time in it to decide.
'16 CTS V-Sport Black/'16 CTS Luxury w/V-Sport Pkg White
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Dropping back for a moment, did any of us foresee Cadillac producing better performance cars than BMW? I was skeptical buying a V1, but after the V2, not anymore. The base BMW is totally crap and requires many, many thousands of dollars in options to even be competitive to the comparable Cadillac. And what about engineering? GM has the best engineers and has proved it. There are more BMW's than gnats in my neck of the woods, and I guess that easy financing terms and general ignorance are the reasons; it certainly isn't because of a better product.
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