Are these motors the same in both cars ? Reason I ask is I just drove a cts 2.0t and when you step on the gas to lets say pass someone on the highway that car flys and engages quickly and smooth (2019) But when you step on the gas on the (2014 ats) it takes about 3 seconds to kick in and its not smooth at all and very noisey .Think there might be something going on with the turbo on the ats or something?
ATS 2.0t and CTS 2.0t ?
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In 2014 the ATS had 260 TQ. It got 295 TQ in 2015.
ATS + CTS got 8 speed trans in 2016.
ATS + CTS got 8 speed trans in 2016.
Your 2014 ATS is rated at 272hp/260lb-ft.
The CTS is rated at 268hp/295lb-ft and weighs about 100lbs more.
ATS
2016 model)
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.4 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 4.1 sec
CTS:
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 4.4 sec
Your car should be at least even with the CTS. I think the transmission and the age of your ATS are the biggest issues.
Are you running a catch can? Have you ever cleaned your valves?
The CTS is rated at 268hp/295lb-ft and weighs about 100lbs more.
ATS
2016 model)Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.4 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 4.1 sec
CTS:
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 4.4 sec
Your car should be at least even with the CTS. I think the transmission and the age of your ATS are the biggest issues.
Are you running a catch can? Have you ever cleaned your valves?
2014 ATS 3.6 Premium RWD, 2016 Corvette Z06, 2018 GMC Sierra Denali 2500HD Diesel
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Cover the basics first:
1. Are you running a quality premium fuel? The 2.0T will run on lower octane but it does pull timing to protect the engine when running regular octane.
2. Has the air filter been changed recently? Forced induction engines flow more air than a same displacement natural induction engine and air filter restriction has a noticeable impact.
You have two things going on with an automatic transmission equipped turbocharged engine because you have a lag to downshift and a lag to build boost. For best acceleration in this situation, pre-select the proper gear using the paddles (or shift lever if your trim doesn't have paddles). This removes the transmission delay from the equation and helps the engine begin to spin up the turbo.
Some GM vehicles respond better to rolling into rather than nailing the throttle in this situation so experiment with yours to see which provides the best response given the ECM and TCM programming for your 2014. My 2014 6 speed auto has the 3.6 and responds very well to rapid throttle but I got a quick lesson in lag and passing early in ownership of my prior 2006 GMC heavy duty diesel pickup. The pickup has a much stouter 6 speed auto than GM cars and light trucks and it would be in second overdrive by 52 MPH and hold this gear when the speed dropped quite a bit lower. As I found just after initial break-in, a full throttle downshift in the upper 40 MPH range could involve a three range downshift from a slower shifting heavy duty transmission plus the turbo lag of a turbo diesel and the first time I pulled out on a 2 lane to pass that delay felt really long although in reality it was about a second and within a short distance the truck was up to its governed 98 MPH speed (limited by rated tire speed). After that I learned to manually down shift before starting tight passing situations but I also found overall response was better rolling into the throttle. Fortunately the programming of the same Allison auto in my 2018 GMC Denali is MUCH better.
Keep in mind that in manual mode the transmission won't automatically up shift so if your gear selection puts you near rated RPM be prepared to shift during your pass or the engine will be held at the rev limited speed which won't be any fun either. The new 8 speed shifts much faster than the older 6 speed. My 2016 Z06 has the high torque variant of the 8 speed used for the ATS and both up and down shifts are extremely fast courtesy of the controller and the revised hydraulic controls but the 6 speed isn't that bad and this transmission was also used by BMW for many years.
1. Are you running a quality premium fuel? The 2.0T will run on lower octane but it does pull timing to protect the engine when running regular octane.
2. Has the air filter been changed recently? Forced induction engines flow more air than a same displacement natural induction engine and air filter restriction has a noticeable impact.
You have two things going on with an automatic transmission equipped turbocharged engine because you have a lag to downshift and a lag to build boost. For best acceleration in this situation, pre-select the proper gear using the paddles (or shift lever if your trim doesn't have paddles). This removes the transmission delay from the equation and helps the engine begin to spin up the turbo.
Some GM vehicles respond better to rolling into rather than nailing the throttle in this situation so experiment with yours to see which provides the best response given the ECM and TCM programming for your 2014. My 2014 6 speed auto has the 3.6 and responds very well to rapid throttle but I got a quick lesson in lag and passing early in ownership of my prior 2006 GMC heavy duty diesel pickup. The pickup has a much stouter 6 speed auto than GM cars and light trucks and it would be in second overdrive by 52 MPH and hold this gear when the speed dropped quite a bit lower. As I found just after initial break-in, a full throttle downshift in the upper 40 MPH range could involve a three range downshift from a slower shifting heavy duty transmission plus the turbo lag of a turbo diesel and the first time I pulled out on a 2 lane to pass that delay felt really long although in reality it was about a second and within a short distance the truck was up to its governed 98 MPH speed (limited by rated tire speed). After that I learned to manually down shift before starting tight passing situations but I also found overall response was better rolling into the throttle. Fortunately the programming of the same Allison auto in my 2018 GMC Denali is MUCH better.
Keep in mind that in manual mode the transmission won't automatically up shift so if your gear selection puts you near rated RPM be prepared to shift during your pass or the engine will be held at the rev limited speed which won't be any fun either. The new 8 speed shifts much faster than the older 6 speed. My 2016 Z06 has the high torque variant of the 8 speed used for the ATS and both up and down shifts are extremely fast courtesy of the controller and the revised hydraulic controls but the 6 speed isn't that bad and this transmission was also used by BMW for many years.
I do not have a catch can as far as I know. and never had the valves cleaned the car has 50k on it now.thank you for your post alsoYour 2014 ATS is rated at 272hp/260lb-ft.
The CTS is rated at 268hp/295lb-ft and weighs about 100lbs more.
ATS
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.4 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 4.1 sec
CTS:
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 4.4 sec
Your car should be at least even with the CTS. I think the transmission and the age of your ATS are the biggest issues.
Are you running a catch can? Have you ever cleaned your valves?
I use BP premium fuel and the filter was just changed and I do not have paddle shifters with this trim.i know what you mean by rolling and yes it engages better and smoother that way rather then just hitting the gas.thank you for your post much appreciated
2014 ATS 3.6 Premium RWD, 2016 Corvette Z06, 2018 GMC Sierra Denali 2500HD Diesel
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The 6L series of transmissions are "learning" transmissions and to some extent their characteristics are modified by the owner's driving style. Fast learn, where the most significant changes occur, happen during the first couple of hundred miles of new vehicle operation and then the transmission stays in a slow learn mode for the rest of its operating life where the adjustment is mostly intended to compensate for slow normal wear in the clutch packs. Basically the controller "knows" how a proper shift should feel based upon changes in vehicle speed and engine load during shifts and when it senses the shift is too abrupt, slow, or clutch pack slip is excessive it will change the timing and pressure of the clutch pack actuation/release.
If this car is new to you, it is possible the previous owner drove it like a little old lady its entire life and it has learned that driving style. A good dealer may be willing to put it back into fast learn mode but good luck finding a dealer who understands or is willing to do this; you would probably have more success befriending one of the techs and paying him to do it after hours with the GM global interface tool.
These electronically controlled transmissions are actually technological marvels where the controller applies one or more clutch packs while simultaneously releasing one or more other clutch packs with near perfect timing. If an oncoming pack is applied before the releasing pack is free then that is a very bad thing because the transmission tries the impossibility of being in two different reduction ranges simultaneously and if there is even a little too much lag between the releasing and applying packs then there is momentary and very noticeable freewheeling behavior along with increased clutch pack wear. The clutch packs are designed to go from unlocked to locked with very little wear or heat generation occurring during operation resulting in transmissions that are so much more reliable than the old hydraulic only systems with their bands and overrunning clutches.
If the problem appeared suddenly or it is only apparent under limited conditions (i.e. always a 5 to lower shift lag) then that particular shift would need to be relearned again by putting it into fast learn mode. A sudden change in only some of the shifts could indicate a problem with one of the clutch packs, actuators, or the trim solenoids controlling that clutch pack. Most clutch packs are involved in more than one (but not all) of the shifts so a problem part issue will usually be noted with several of the different range shifts while a persistent issue which only impacts shifts between the same two ranges is more likely to be a learning issue. When the 8L45/8L90 first came out several of the early TSBs involved having the dealer reset what GM used to refer to as the "taps" which were memorized sets of parameters for each shift under different sets of conditions and then having the technician force the transmission to make the troublesome shift several times to relearn those parameters. The same basic thought applies to the 6L but the initial programming for it was far more refined than the original 8L parameters so it didn't have the same initial concerns.
My first experience with one of these "smart" transmission was with the 5 speed Allison transmission (which was then part of the GM corporate family) in my 2001 GMC diesel pickup and at 2,500 miles I had to have it put back into fast learn mode because the shifting was flawless except for the light throttle 3 to 4 upshift with the air conditioning compressor active which indicated even back then how many "taps" there are for each shift based upon a large number of different operating parameters. Like most complex systems, it can and usually does work very well but it can be like a poorly behaved kindergarten brat when things don't go well.
I believe part of it is the electronic throttle calibration as well - even the 2016+ 8L45 2.0T ATS's I've had as loaners felt unresponsive to me unless you were booting the throttle (then hang-on for that midrange!); the one CTS loaner I've had felt powerful and responsive in all the spots the ATS's didnt. The downside was I couldn't make that CTS get good fuel economy at all, I'd guess I was getting 3-5 MPG better out of the ATS's I had (I tend to drive like a grandpa with a different car to see how good of mileage I can get).
good read thanks I never new any of this
Spent 8 years working at the plant that manufactured that transmission. Great facility, but unfortunately it was one of the ones recently announced as being "non-allocated" The A1000 is/was a beast - pinion gears larger than most sun gears in other transmission, huge clutch packs, and a main shaft that was a marvel at the time. You are 100% correct with the variable clutch engagement solenoids on the valvebody used in conjunction with software to optimize shift pattern. It could continue to modify pressures as internal components wore through their lifespan, compensating for things such as fluid viscosity, clutch wear, and even minor internal circuit leaks.
2014 ATS 3.6 Premium RWD, 2016 Corvette Z06, 2018 GMC Sierra Denali 2500HD Diesel
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Etilley,
Thanks for the great work that you did there and I hope that the "non-allocation" doesn't affect your situation!
Thanks for the great work that you did there and I hope that the "non-allocation" doesn't affect your situation!
No worries on my end! Made transition years ago, but will always look back fondly at my time there (was Quality Manager for a good part of it). Quick question - where have you developed your extensive knowledge base? Several of your postings demonstrate an awesome fundamental literacy of automotive systems.
2014 ATS 3.6 Premium RWD, 2016 Corvette Z06, 2018 GMC Sierra Denali 2500HD Diesel
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3,871 Posts
I did a lot of enterprise risk management consulting over the years and a fair amount in the auto industry. I was also around the retail side some as a kid. Long before I came along, when my father was a young man he had a Nash and Hudson dealership and he remained loyal to the brand. I spent a lot of time on road trips as a young child in a Rambler Cross Country station wagon and took my driving test in an AMC Ambassador. While I was growing up my Uncle Clarence had a Chevrolet dealership and there was a Ford dealership in another branch of the family. No matter what make you drove to our annual family reunion, you were certain to make some people angry
At least there was only one tractor dealer in the family (Deutz Allis) so that didn't create too much controversy.I am still pretty GM brand loyal and although I wish they would have done a better job with the 8L family, the 8L90 in my 2016 Z06 has worked perfectly except for the need to manually shift to second gear while stationary at the first start of the day to avoid an initial rough 1 to 2 up shift. I either leave it in manual mode or have a Range anti-AFM module in place to avoid the continuous converter clutch modulation in V4 mode that is likely a large contributor to the shudder issue. If the latest (version 4 if I count correctly) ATF fluid formulation revision continues to get good reports, I will have that done before it goes into hibernation for the winter.
One now humorous historical industry footnote: Before the "Japanese invasion" when the feds were concerned about anti-competitive concentration in the U.S. auto industry at one point there was a real risk that GM and Ford would be partially broken up if the industry became more concentrated. So GM, and to a lesser extent Ford. began bidding on some large government fleet contracts and then supplying AMC products in order to help AMC stay in business. They knew that was the tipping point and if AMC failed then it was highly likely the justice department would begin anti-trust proceedings against the bigger 2 of the then "Big 4". Of course by the time "Franco American" motors finally failed under Renault, the market looked a lot different and a monopoly of the remaining big 3 was no longer a major concern. When International Harvester was still making SUVs and pickups, a major strike cut into their engine production ability in the very early 1970s and they ended up using AMC produced 401 V8 engines in place of their own SV-392 in light duty vehicles. An old timer I knew said that several sources were considered but they had an existing relationship with AMC for inline 6 cylinder engines and Ford and GM both refused to deal with them because they were a competitor to their own light truck lines AND it was another way to send business to AMC and avoid their own breakup. The ghost of AMC lives on in AM General (best known for the Humvee and civilian Hummer version) because at the time Renault acquired majority ownership of AMC, U.S. major defense contractors couldn't be foreign owned and AM General was the result which had its own ties with GM using the 6.2 and 6.5 diesel engines originally designed when Detroit Diesel was still part of GM and GM sold a Hummer line for a few years before bad things happened with the economy.
It sounds like you have retired and I hope that you are enjoying it!
Still about 20yrs out from retirement LOL. Spent 19 years w/GM & Allison working in foundries, transmissions, hybrids, and electric drivetrains. While still in a quality role, I'm just now bigger scope in a different industry. I do miss my days in automotive though! CheersI did a lot of enterprise risk management consulting over the years and a fair amount in the auto industry. I was also around the retail side some as a kid. Long before I came along, when my father was a young man he had a Nash and Hudson dealership and he remained loyal to the brand. I spent a lot of time on road trips as a young child in a Rambler Cross Country station wagon and took my driving test in an AMC Ambassador. While I was growing up my Uncle Clarence had a Chevrolet dealership and there was a Ford dealership in another branch of the family. No matter what make you drove to our annual family reunion, you were certain to make some people angry
I am still pretty GM brand loyal and although I wish they would have done a better job with the 8L family, the 8L90 in my 2016 Z06 has worked perfectly except for the need to manually shift to second gear while stationary at the first start of the day to avoid an initial rough 1 to 2 up shift. I either leave it in manual mode or have a Range anti-AFM module in place to avoid the continuous converter clutch modulation in V4 mode that is likely a large contributor to the shudder issue. If the latest (version 4 if I count correctly) ATF fluid formulation revision continues to get good reports, I will have that done before it goes into hibernation for the winter.
One now humorous historical industry footnote: Before the "Japanese invasion" when the feds were concerned about anti-competitive concentration in the U.S. auto industry at one point there was a real risk that GM and Ford would be partially broken up if the industry became more concentrated. So GM, and to a lesser extent Ford. began bidding on some large government fleet contracts and then supplying AMC products in order to help AMC stay in business. They knew that was the tipping point and if AMC failed then it was highly likely the justice department would begin anti-trust proceedings against the bigger 2 of the then "Big 4". Of course by the time "Franco American" motors finally failed under Renault, the market looked a lot different and a monopoly of the remaining big 3 was no longer a major concern. When International Harvester was still making SUVs and pickups, a major strike cut into their engine production ability in the very early 1970s and they ended up using AMC produced 401 V8 engines in place of their own SV-392 in light duty vehicles. An old timer I knew said that several sources were considered but they had an existing relationship with AMC for inline 6 cylinder engines and Ford and GM both refused to deal with them because they were a competitor to their own light truck lines AND it was another way to send business to AMC and avoid their own breakup. The ghost of AMC lives on in AM General (best known for the Humvee and civilian Hummer version) because at the time Renault acquired majority ownership of AMC, U.S. major defense contractors couldn't be foreign owned and AM General was the result which had its own ties with GM using the 6.2 and 6.5 diesel engines originally designed when Detroit Diesel was still part of GM and GM sold a Hummer line for a few years before bad things happened with the economy.
It sounds like you have retired and I hope that you are enjoying it!
2014 ATS 3.6 Premium RWD, 2016 Corvette Z06, 2018 GMC Sierra Denali 2500HD Diesel
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I retired at 55, sooner than I originally planned but it was a great decision. I am glad you are staying in a quality role. For most organizations, a lot of underlying risks feed into the global risk which is loss of perceived and/or actual quality which can be a killer for a business.
In 1978 Dan Fogelberg and Tim Weisberg released their album titled, "Twin Sons of Different Mothers" and that is how I have always thought of Enterprise Risk Management and Total Quality Management because they are truly twin sons of different mothers or two sides of the same coin, whichever you prefer. It was a lot of fun working in both areas and FAR more interesting than the research articles I had to publish for tenure and later promotion to full professor. These consulting activities were also much easier to apply in the classroom since a lot of research falls into either the category of "intuitively obvious to the most disinterested observer" or "so esoteric that there are no possible practical applications now or during this millennium"
In 1978 Dan Fogelberg and Tim Weisberg released their album titled, "Twin Sons of Different Mothers" and that is how I have always thought of Enterprise Risk Management and Total Quality Management because they are truly twin sons of different mothers or two sides of the same coin, whichever you prefer. It was a lot of fun working in both areas and FAR more interesting than the research articles I had to publish for tenure and later promotion to full professor. These consulting activities were also much easier to apply in the classroom since a lot of research falls into either the category of "intuitively obvious to the most disinterested observer" or "so esoteric that there are no possible practical applications now or during this millennium"
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also check to see if it was in sport mode i know on my ATS its a big difference
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