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Discussion Starter #1
Ever notice this....
A really high percentage of persons today who are over 60 will not purchase ANY German car, because they recall 1939-1943. An equally high percentage of 55-ish folks will not purchase any Asian car, as they were possibly in service at the time of Pearl Harbor. However, even though they may be the offspring of these people, today's youth-to 45 years of age have no problem buying Asian or German cars.
Leads me to this question. How would YOU feel, if in 20 years your kid bought a new car sourced from Iraq or Afghanistan? (and) Don't think it can't happen, look at the cars Korea is turning out.
 

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I'm 25 and have a '03 CTS. Really wouldn't mind a German car (almost bought a 3 series...) but the Asians just aren't attractive to me (the 350Z and G35 are nice but feel cheap to me when I test drove them).

As for the Middle east... If they brought out a competitive car that I liked over my CTS I would buy one tomorrow. People should focus on world economy (we're all in this together) rather than keeping an 'us versus them' mentality.
 

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Sandy said:
Ever notice this....
A really high percentage of persons today who are over 60 will not purchase ANY German car, because they recall 1939-1943. An equally high percentage of 55-ish folks will not purchase any Asian car, as they were possibly in service at the time of Pearl Harbor. However, even though they may be the offspring of these people, today's youth-to 45 years of age have no problem buying Asian or German cars.
Leads me to this question. How would YOU feel, if in 20 years your kid bought a new car sourced from Iraq or Afghanistan? (and) Don't think it can't happen, look at the cars Korea is turning out.
Pearl Harbor was 62 years ago. I read somewhere a few years ago that WWII veterans were dying at the rate of 1000 per day. The YOUNGEST WWII vets are now approaching 80. Not a whole lot of them are buying cars anymore. Your statements were ALL true in 1983.

German & Japanese automakers' improved reliability, providing what the American market demands, and the next generation of buyers not having animosity towards them all play a role in their success in this country. And of course you have to throw in the decline in American quality. (Thanks, UAW!)

My father is 63, he's had three Acuras and two Mercedes. I really don't care as long as the car is a quality machine. I'm seriously looking at American cars this time as a post-9/11 reaction.
 

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Blaming the people of the present, for the crimes of politicians/dictatorships of the past?

Yup, I have owned BMWs, Hondas, and Mitsubishis in the last 10 years.

Does that make me some kind of AXIS supporting traitor in the service of Hitler and Hirohito? I guess some people don't realize that time advances, the world isn't a static place. I guess we really do inherit inherit the crimes of our fathers?

It is impossible to point at an ethnic group or nation and label them BAD, and expect that label to apply 5, 10, 50 years later. Sounds very narrow minded, biggoted, and unethical/immoral.

According to those people we Americans must still go around tossing nuclear bombs on civilian populations, killing millions of women and children instead of sending our military in and risking USGI lives, maybe we still lock up japanese people assuming them all to be spies and sabotures, allow slavery for the economic benefit of wealthy land owners, enforce race segregation in public for the general well being of the white population, work small children to death for pennies a day in filthy coal mines and factories, and slaughter indigenous natives to clear the way for "true" Americans... those savage Canadians and Mexicans better watch out!! America's right of imminent domain is headed their way - we need another 50 states, and those pesky indigenous savages are going to have to be relocataed or (better yet) simply slaughtered! Time to introduce those vermin to some smallpox infected blankets for the good of our nation.

I know what you say is true though, and it's really sad so many people still feel that way. I can see it and understand it for a few years after something as horrible as WWII but 60 years later is just plain ignorance
:mad:
 

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Sandy said:
Ever notice this....
A really high percentage of persons today who are over 60 will not purchase ANY German car, because they recall 1939-1943. An equally high percentage of 55-ish folks will not purchase any Asian car, as they were possibly in service at the time of Pearl Harbor. However, even though they may be the offspring of these people, today's youth-to 45 years of age have no problem buying Asian or German cars.
Leads me to this question. How would YOU feel, if in 20 years your kid bought a new car sourced from Iraq or Afghanistan? (and) Don't think it can't happen, look at the cars Korea is turning out.
Looks like you started something ugly here Sandy. For a few months after 9/11 it was generally ok to be proud of America, and to support it.
Now though, it's remote enough that selfishness has taken over again. One reply to your question was half right referring to the "world economy". But the wat the world economy works is, we go into a country, show them how to use resources and compete in the world market, pay for everything, then they tell us to get the hell out. And if we don't leave fast enough they fly a plane into something.
I remember in the late 60's and early 70's you saw a lot of "Buy American" bumper stickers. Sadly, if you go look up most of those people today they're driving imports. America has this unfortunate streak of " I got mine, screw you"
 

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Elvis said:
Pearl Harbor was 62 years ago. I read somewhere a few years ago that WWII veterans were dying at the rate of 1000 per day. The YOUNGEST WWII vets are now approaching 80. Not a whole lot of them are buying cars anymore. Your statements were ALL true in 1983.

German & Japanese automakers' improved reliability, providing what the American market demands, and the next generation of buyers not having animosity towards them all play a role in their success in this country. And of course you have to throw in the decline in American quality. (Thanks, UAW!)

My father is 63, he's had three Acuras and two Mercedes. I really don't care as long as the car is a quality machine. I'm seriously looking at American cars this time as a post-9/11 reaction.
A quick question Elvis. What part of the auto industry did you work in ? In the 11 years I was in the UAW, if I remember right, the line workers installed the parts that someone else designed, developed , ordered and bought. The UAW didn't have one freaking word of say in the quality of the components the workers were supplied with. So now let's all hear about some fifth hand story about a door that was installed with no screws. On a Monday. By a blind, drunk, drug addicted, aids spreading UAW member who only showed up for work to satisfy his parole officer. Happens all the time ! And that damned UAW wouldn't let the poor manufacturer fire him !
And let's not forget how much those illiterate hillbillies make either ! Right ? $20, $22\hour ? Why, I think I'll just sit here watching those starving NFL players and spout some more crap about how they deserve every penny they make because of the enjoyment they bring to my mundane life. Wow ! If only Warren Sapp could get a job on an auto line !
So Elvis, where was it you work ?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Boy! Gosh! Did I ever open a can of pent-up emotions.

Well, what caused this is....
I recently attended a speaker (guest) at a fairly large VFW hall. Not being of (how to say it) ? Ahhh, foreign-car friendly mind, I was pleasantly surprised that the parking lot held (yes, I counted) 45 cars. I looked real hard, and could only find 2 foreign cars, a Camry & a Diamante. The other 43 were pretty evenly split beween 40% & 40% GM & Ford and about 19% Chrysler. My friend said to me, "These guys will not buy foreign, they believe in BUY AMERICAN, and support America!

THAT guys is what prompted my question, which in turn unleased some old Texas-style Chilli replies :mad: Hot Sizzle!
 

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Sandy said:
Boy! Gosh! Did I ever open a can of pent-up emotions.

Well, what caused this is....
I recently attended a speaker (guest) at a fairly large VFW hall. Not being of (how to say it) ? Ahhh, foreign-car friendly mind, I was pleasantly surprised that the parking lot held (yes, I counted) 45 cars. I looked real hard, and could only find 2 foreign cars, a Camry & a Diamante. The other 43 were pretty evenly split beween 40% & 40% GM & Ford and about 19% Chrysler. My friend said to me, "These guys will not buy foreign, they believe in BUY AMERICAN, and support America!

THAT guys is what prompted my question, which in turn unleased some old Texas-style Chilli replies :mad: Hot Sizzle!
Well, sorry I got a bit irritated, but it gets old beeing blamed for all the ills in the auto industry.If I was so overpaid and underworked as a Die Maker, why are there so many kids in here with newer, more expensive cars than mine ?
It's kind of funny that people bitch and moan about America, but before they canned the INS I don't think they had a huge waiting list of people applying for emmigration visas. Oh well, everyone has a right to their opinion. I guess I'm old.
Bob
 

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bob2231 said:
In the 11 years I was in the UAW, if I remember right, the line workers installed the parts that someone else designed, developed , ordered and bought. The UAW didn't have one freaking word of say in the quality of the components the workers were supplied with.
I'm not pro-union. And I don't want to irritate you any further. But I think unions have run their coarse in America.

Why does the UAW have to pick a fight every year with one of the auto makers? The rest of the country is being laid off or taking pay cuts during a recession, but the union keeps seeking more and more. Which is great, we all want more. But you shouldn't complain when a Japanese car (made in a non-union US factory) is cheaper and has better quality.

No, you can't blame the union workers for poor quality. But wouldn't it be wiser to let automakers spend their money on R&D and plant upgrades to keep us competitive rather than forcing them to keep old and outdated factories open just so we don;t have to relocate a union member to another state?

I'm for Federalizing Unions and then dimantling them. They were good for the workers back before OSHA and trial lawyers. I find more self value in the ability to negotiate one on one for the worth I alone bring to the company.
 

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Flame away, Bob. The truth is that the high salaries demanded by the UAW for jobs like sweeping floors (an uncle of mine made $27.50/hr to do that in the late '70s) is what led the "Big Three" to cut costs. I never said anything about lazy workers. I said UAW.

Need documentation? okay. The companies with higher build quality reputations are avoiding the UAW like the plague.

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/uaw27_20030827.htm

and no, I don't need to give you a fifth-hand story. It's in the news several times a year...

http://www.click2houston.com/sh/news/wisconsin/stories/news-wisconsin-20000927-221541.html

and yet, the UAW opposes drug testing?

http://www.cleartest.com/testinfo/uaw.html

Flame all you want, a constructive debate would be to produce links confirming your opinions. All I did was state one of mine. You're entitled to yours, too. But I'm not going to get sarcastic with you or flame you about it.
 

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Elvis said:
Flame all you want, a constructive debate would be to produce links confirming your opinions. All I did was state one of mine. You're entitled to yours, too. But I'm not going to get sarcastic with you or flame you about it.
Well said Elvis.

This is a controversial topic. It *must* remain civil...
 

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HotRodSaint said:
I'm not pro-union. And I don't want to irritate you any further. But I think unions have run their coarse in America.

Why does the UAW have to pick a fight every year with one of the auto makers? The rest of the country is being laid off or taking pay cuts during a recession, but the union keeps seeking more and more. Which is great, we all want more. But you shouldn't complain when a Japanese car (made in a non-union US factory) is cheaper and has better quality.

No, you can't blame the union workers for poor quality. But wouldn't it be wiser to let automakers spend their money on R&D and plant upgrades to keep us competitive rather than forcing them to keep old and outdated factories open just so we don;t have to relocate a union member to another state?

I'm for Federalizing Unions and then dimantling them. They were good for the workers back before OSHA and trial lawyers. I find more self value in the ability to negotiate one on one for the worth I alone bring to the company.
There's really not much point in arguing this. I've found that changing someone's opinion on this, either way, is about impossible. But I'm going to address some misconceptions that many people seem to have about unions in general, and the UAW specifically. I have no expectation of changing your view, but you might find a different opinion, and some facts, interesting.
No offense, but I don't think you know how collective bargaining works. The UAW doesn't pick a fight with anyone every year. Or any year. The "fights" I think you're referring to are contract negotiations. It's become fairly standard practice for the big unions, and the massive companies, to pick one manufacturer to negotiate the new contract with it's unions. The UAW may negotiate with GM this year, the next time the contract comes up, it may be Ford. Or Chrysler. Same with the URW and Firestone, Goodyear, Goodrich etc.
And a quick little side-track about the URW. Who do you think insisted on shipping all those defective tires to Ford ? And then trying to cover it up ? The URW line workers ? Or those saints in corporate ?
Back to the subject. Lay-offs and my personal greed. I'm originally from NE Ohio. And I started in a small shop the year after I got out of High school. One thing led to another and I ended up working for a GM outsource Die shop. On 9/11/01 my wife and I watched the Towers fall while she gave birth to our daughter. By early December 60% of the skilled trade workers in Cleveland were either unemployed or on short time. I was kind of lucky. We only got cut from 55 hours to 20 a week. So, I think I know a bit about getting layed off or taking a pay cut. It's not all that much better there now. Think I moved to Florida because it's a hot bed of manufacturing ?
Now as for the union wanting more and more all the time. For at least the last decade, and I'd lean more toward it being twenty years, the unions haven't been pushing for more. They've been trying to stop the bleeding. Every renewal, the manufacturers insist on more give backs. Lower wages, shorter hours, less health care, higher co-pays, less vacation, fewer holidays, scaled back retirement, elimination of prescription insurance for retirees. You name it, they demand the workers give back more. Have you been paying attention to what's happening in the Airline industry ? The Feds gave the carriers $Billions of all our tax money and the companies demanded the workers give back tons anyway. They're never satisfied. But you begrudge us what we have left. And God help us all if the Fed ever gets their grimey claws on our retirement funds. The same group of vultures that ruined Social Security is the one you feel best able to dismantle unions. Will you promise to pay all my bills after I retire ?
Florida is a "right to work state". So unions don't exist here in the traditonal sense. Let me give you one miniscule example of how companies take care of their beloved workers here when no one is standing up for them. We have no hot water to clean up with to go home. They insist that since it's Florida, room temperature water is good enough for us. By the way, we also have no heat. It doesn't get that cold here, right ? Sure am grateful to OSHA and the Trial parasites.
Anyway, I thought I'd give you answers to some of your questions and comments. I guess I should have stuck with buying Chevrolet. The other owners din't feel so threatened that people like me might buy one. But the traditional Cadillac owner seems to see me as an idiot that was just good in shop class. It just amazes me that there's so little respect here for the people that actually built the cars you people claim to love so much.
Hey don't worry, for some reason I don't really feel like posting here after today. I guess I got here too late to get into a really cool clique.
Bob
 

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the Sandman said:
Well said Elvis.

This is a controversial topic. It *must* remain civil...
I don't remember saying anything uncivil to anyone. So I'm lost on that one. But to reply to Elvis, I'm not talking about my "uncle", aunt, cousin Elmo, the guy across the street or some cooter I read about on a bathroom wall. I'm talking about exactly what's going on now, and for the past 20 years. Not from someone else's experience, but from my own.
I don't give opinions based on something I've never personally experienced. FIRST hand.
So that's it for me. I never dreamed a Cadillac forum would be populated by so many people, apparently including moderators, that don't give a damn about the workers that made the cars.
Good luck with the forum folks. I hope you can limit it to the elitist few that some of you seem to be looking for.
Bob
 

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bob2231 said:
Let me give you one miniscule example of how companies take care of their beloved workers here when no one is standing up for them. We have no hot water to clean up with to go home. They insist that since it's Florida, room temperature water is good enough for us.
You are kidding right? Unless you are in a nurses union, I really hope that the lack of hot water at work isn't a big union issue.
 

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bob2231 said:
So that's it for me. I never dreamed a Cadillac forum would be populated by so many people, apparently including moderators, that don't give a damn about the workers that made the cars.
Good luck with the forum folks. I hope you can limit it to the elitist few that some of you seem to be looking for.
Bob
Two people question the validity of unions positive effects in modern America and you're gone?! :confused:
 

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Hey, all I said was "Thanks UAW" and then the roof fell in. :halo:

I'm damn sorry. :rolleyes:

Die dulci fruere.

That'll probably be taken the wrong way, too. :canttalk:
 

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HotRodSaint said:
Two people question the validity of unions positive effects in modern America and you're gone?! :confused:
First, no I'm not in a nurse's union. But would there be something negative in that ? Or are you fumbling around trying to call me gay ?
Second, it just seems interesting that all the negative responses to my posts are coming from moderators. IT makes it hard to have any confidence in the neutrality of the moderation. I think that's what Katshot had such a problem with concerning the super moderator concept. Also interesting that in a warning to everyone to keep things civil, it was no secret which side the moderator took.
That's exactly why some people are concerned about who may be deleting posts, editing them, removing them from view, and why.
Are you guys getting the whole purpose of this argument yet ?
 

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Elvis said:
That's a good article that gives both sides of the argument.

I like this part:
That -- and the lack of layoffs -- have made nonunion workers more willing to overlook the significant differences in pensions, health care costs and work rules, which is where the auto companies say the cost-gap arises. The UAW rose to power by giving strength and dignity to workers who felt taken advantage of by giant corporations. These days, that's just not the case, said Folsom, the former Alabama governor. "There's not a crying need to unionize when you are making $60,000."
 

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That was one of the reasons I posted it, HRS. If there's any legitimate complaint against the UAW, it's the bosses, not the labor. They're the ones who screwed things up for everybody. The pension funds are usually the reason. Jimmy Hoffa wrote the book, but that's another story.

I only posted the drug articles because bob brought it up. Google is a wonderful thing.
 
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