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7K views 75 replies 22 participants last post by  V&Vette 
#1 ·
I'm sure this was mentioned in the other thread, I thought I'd mention it for those not keeping up with that thread. I don't see the article on line yet, but just got the hard copy in the mail.

Main knock on the V is the crappy auto trans. V out accelerates and brakes the others. But, came in last on skid pad. V is also criticized for being too heavy.

I don't understand why the mags used an auto instead of the manual. This is a sport coupe after all. It's not unreasonable to assume sport coupe drivers might enjoy rowing for themselves.

Ira
 
#2 · (Edited)
Well yeah it's too heavy,.... it's a car in a totally different class. I guess in everyone's haste, the mags couldn't wait for the AST-V (or is it gonna be the ATS-V,... not sure) before compare 3's, C's and R5's with something out of Caddy's stable. And while I'm guessin', I guess they were similarly afraid to compare the heavier, more appropriate german coupes. I'm also disappointed they brought a knife to a gun fight. I guess they were 'trying' to keep things even since the Audi and the M had automated boxes. But just like some in here, the mags don't seem to understand that a manual is a manual and an automatic is an automatic. The V auto is a mix-match,... even though it changes gears by itself like the Audi and the M. Duh! So I'm left assuming that comparing evenly matched cars has lost it's popularity. Still,... like you I believe that if the had been a manual, it would have done better. I'm certain it would have bested the Audi after reading what they thought of it. If the only significant thing they can find wrong with it is the transmission option,... I'd call that a win. Even in our community, the only thing the auto is good for are 1/4 mile rips (the auto can't be beat on the strip) and driving while drinking coffee and eating a bagel in the morning while driving to work. Oh wait a minute,... I forgot,... the wife!
 
#7 ·
Even in our community, the only thing the auto is good for are 1/4 mile rips (the auto can't be beat on the strip) and driving while drinking coffee and eating a bagel in the morning while driving to work. Oh wait a minute,... I forgot,... the wife!
They were comparing an auto against an auto. The auto has been proven over and over again to be quicker than the manual in the V. They stated that the transmissions in the other two cars were better. Not a big deal. Also your last comment there was ignorant and made absolutely no sense. In your opinion the auto is only good for those things. Thankfully not everything thinks that way.
 
#3 ·
A disgusting analysis. I did not buy my V with the idea I would be saving gas. (I drove my V to Austin, Texas recently & got 19 MPG driving 75 on a 400 mile round trip), and the other pointless "deducts" on the scoring system, were comfort, rear seat confort, engine NVW (what is that?), transmission etc. The V is the real winner, with good pricing, the quickest, the best looking and a bullet proof engine set up that can't be matched. I have an automatic, and love it. What about future repair cost and maintenance? There was no mention of service cost? I would not want to pay for servicing the other two vehicles.
 
#6 ·
I think this was specific to the Coupe and not the sedan. I read all the articles and comparisons and I agree that they should have made it smaller/lighter (maybe more like that Cadilac concept car) but I think the interior is nicer than both the M3 and the Rs5. If the V-Coupe was 300-400 pounds lighter with 305s in the rear, then the car would be in Z06 territory.

I ordered the coupe and I'm looking looking forward to getting my car in the next month or so. However, I ordered manual and I'm happy I did. Since I can't make the car lighter, I'll just change the pulleys, go with AR headers, a tune, D3 springs to lower the car, and 305.30.19s (don't want 20s). This should certainly make a nice difference...
 
#4 ·
only thing i did like better from the pics from the audi and bmw were the front seats. i do not know how comfortable the seats on those vechiles are but the recaros "really" arent the most comfortable out there. they hold you in well but comfort is lacking IMHO.

the other funny thing is the V got knocked on a quiet exhaust and supercharger (lol) for $1,000 put a new exhaust on and an intake and the V sounds AWESOME............ and still $7,000 cheaper then the M3

i really want to see the m5/6 vs V coupe vs mb comparioson.
 
#9 ·
The M3 is priced the same as the V. Both are 70k in the real world with options. Almost identical, check out both sites. Also the M5 vs V comparison was done about 6 months ago in M & T. The V took 1st! Good read, check out the link I posted in the other discussion (M3 vs RS5 vs V).
 
#5 ·
This review was already discussed at length in the other thread about the Car & Driver Comparison. Yes, the V Coupe is heavier and larger than both cars and probably competes in a different class (M6 anyone?), but at the end of the day, the focus on the V Coupe's interior quality and achingly slow automatic transmission are valid points of criticism that are echoed on these forums all the time. So, again, GM bring on the dual clutch manual/automatic.
 
#12 ·
The car magazines generally pick which vehicles to "compare" that any car enthusiast sees as transparent bias from the start. Writers are enamored with "import" cars, reporting a predetermined agenda that comes to the conclusion based on their original intent. This is why I always decline to participate in "surveys" professionally developed by a person having a psychology degree with emphasis in survey development (manipulation!).
'Our Survey on XXXSUBJECTXX proved that 84.2% of those participating (manipulated) agree with our (unavoidable) conclusion.'
HOWEVER, I will continue to subscribe, as there is information to gleen from their data by ignoring the scoring points designed to support their conclusions. :lies:
 
#15 ·
The car magazines generally pick which vehicles to "compare" that any car enthusiast sees as transparent bias from the start. Writers are enamored with "import" cars, reporting a predetermined agenda that comes to the conclusion based on their original intent.
You speak with such certainty about automotive journalists and their ethics, agendas and professionalism; are you one, or do you just pretend to know it all?
 
#19 ·
Again for those who haven't been listening (hint: mugatu22 & V&Vette),... the CTS-V Coupe was the ONLY automatic in that shootout. The ONLY ONE!!! The BMW and the Audi were manual transmissions rigged to shift thru their manual gears with less to no human input using automated gear shifting schemes. Period! My God men,... stop announcing to the world that your collective brains are stuck in neutral! Maybe I should say,... P for Park!
 
#20 ·
I don't find your claim that the M3 had an "automated" manual to be very convincing. BMW sells the M3 with a true manual six-speed (and it's a great manual transmission) but BMW gets $2900 for the M Double Clutch Transmission that was used in the test.

Regardless of nomenclature, the fact remains that dual clutch manual automatics are superior technology. That's why they are used in race cars as well as the most advanced sports cars. The V's lack of that option in 2011 is the primary reason why the V is beginning to suffer in comparisons with other sports cars. Should GM make the mistake of releasing the V in 2012 without a DCT option, the car will no longer have any credible claim to being the best sports sedan in the World.
 
#28 ·
For one thing, the number of manual transmission M6s sold by BMW is very small. The awful previous generation 7-speed SMG is standard while the manual transmission is a no-cost option. Think back to the first year the E60 M5 was introduced--no manual available--you had to buy it with the SMG and only the complaints of the automotive press and their customer base (plus the fact that BMW ultimately realized that the SMG was a very unsatisfactory product) brought the full manual tranny back.

That also sort of points up why it's silly to keep hoping the car magazines will do an all manual transmission comparo with a V-coupe. The percentage of people buying manual transmissions in sports cars now is vanishingly small and getting smaller every year. Car magazines test what people are most likely to buy (and also the coolest technology which is a double vote for DCT). Manuals are always way more popular among automotive forum members than the general public because we represent the top 1% of car enthusiasts and are therefore self-selecting.

In any event, the whole "manual to manual" gripe is merely papering over the problem that GM needs to confront--devoting the resources necessary to build an automatic that is worthy of this incredible car that they somehow managed to conjur up. I love my V now and I think it's better than the M5, M3, or M6 regardless of what the automotive press says. I'd just love my V more with a better automatic.
 
#29 ·
No way in hell the M3 gets a nod over the V...have you driven an M3 lately. Very slow. The V rips down form the bottom all the way thru the range. I'm not a huge fan of the Coupe, not crazy about the huge doors. But it's no 3rd place ride and you know that.
 
#42 ·
One thing that commonly get over looked when bringing up these arguments are the different requirements the engines attached to these transmissions require. If you notice almost all, the Bugatti Veyron excepted, of the cars equipped with DSG, DCT, PDK, and so on aren't producing the amount of torque the V does.

The M3 for example produces about 280Ft.Lbs of torque, and does so at a much higher RPM than the V. The V is producing almost 120 additional Ft.Lbs. of torque at only 1000RPM's, that is a completely different type of load. Generally, "planetary" transmissions handle larger torque loads better than wet clutch automated manuals, with dry clutch "conventional" manuals being the most robust typically.

I am not saying that the 6L90E is perfect, far from it, but it is the best transmission currently available for amount of torque the LSA can produce. There is a reason why Mercedes stil uses the 5 Speed Auto for the V12TT cars, the new 7 and 8 Speed gear boxes can't handle the amount of torque the V12TT produces. I would like to see GM develop, or out source, a "DCT type" transmission, even a wet clutch coupling, that can handle the amount of torque the LSA produces.

Currently the stock 6L90E is rated for about 880Ft.Lbs of torque, which is about right for the LSA, as generally the Max Limit is at least 150% of the torque the most powerful engine offers. Considering we have people putting down ~650rwtq, which should be around 750-800Ft.Lbs at the motor, its a good thing it was over built.

~Matt
 
#45 ·
Well said Matt! Torque is a big part of determining the selection of transmissions used. You're also right in pointing out that with BMW, we're talking about low torque high revving mills. Hell,... our stock LSA's put out more torque at idle than the M3's mill at the top of their band.
 
#48 ·
Currently, from what I can gather, the ZF 7DT-70/7DT-75 (a.k.a. PDK), used in the Porsche 911 & Panamera Turbos, is rated for between 575-600ft.lbs of torque, while I would say it would be adequate for an non-modded V, it would be pushed to it's limits under basic mods. The Ricardo DCT's in the Bugatti Veyron is rated for 922ft.lbs of torque, just for reference. So there are certainly DCT out there that would be capable of of handling the load, the question is, unfortunately, how much. Hopefully, with the CTS moving up market in its 3rd generation to make room for the ATS, the next CTS-V will be equipped with a more desirable transmission.

~ Matt.
 
#53 · (Edited)
We don't know what kind of torque the F10 M5's version of the BMW 4.4-liter/twin turbo V-8 will put down, but it is reasonable to assume that torque will exceed that of the current M versions of the engine installed in the X5M/X6M and those engines are rated at 500 lb-ft. BMW has already confirmed that the new M5 will have a version of the BMW 7-speed M Double Clutch transmission. It obviously can be done.

Edited To correct torque specification.:bigroll:
 
#63 ·
yeah,... you got a point there. The auto V seems to be geared to live happy cruising at around 80 or so. According to the article, it's auto gear box does a lot of hunting while doing duty on the autobahn. I believe I read something about the tall gears in the rear not being perfectly matched with the final ratio of the box. I think I also read that the rear is bigger in the manual V,... not sure what the ratios are though or how much they differ. But you're right, the auto V is gear for our highways,... not theirs. I would imagine hitting some gas mileage targets were also played a part in designing the auto's gear so tall. If I were cruising at or near 100, I'd be concerned too if the car dropped from 6th to 5th every time I gave it some gas.

I've think I've had my V up to about 110 or so very very briefly,... and it was very obvious that there was still a lot left. But the last thing on my mind (if I weren't so chicken) would have been to drop down to 5th to go after the rest. Maybe dropping down would have been SOP for those low torque, 7 speed, high revving BMW guys,... I dunno!
 
#65 ·
Someone on here mentioned the warranty with the Transmission. Excellent point, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these issues and reasons for the particular tranny in the V is partly due to warranty/cost efficiencies relating to the overall profit and loss statements.:helpless:
 
#66 ·
You guys are making things too complicated. Two things matter in a transmission:

1. Who changes the gears
"manual" or "automatic"

2. How the power is transmitted.
direct mechanical connection via 1 or more clutches, or through a fluid coupling via a torque converter.

The problem with traditional automatics is that they transmit power through a non-direct fluid coupling. This causes excessive heat, shift delays, and power loss. They have come a long way, but they cannot and never will be able to match the performance of a good DCT. The only reason recent automatics are becoming more fuel efficient or faster than manuals is that a computer can optimize the shift schedule far better than a human, in some cases this is enough to make up for the inherent losses in a traditional automatic. However, this is NOT because an automatic is a better trans than a manual, it's because the ECU can control shifts better than a human.

While the shifting is automated in a DCT, everything else about them is similar to a manual. Drive a Porsche PDK or Audi DSG . . . they are fantastic transmissions. They shift quickly and crisply and do exactly what the driver wants 99% of the time (I haven't driven BMW's DCT, but their SMG was a joke).

Dual clutch transmissions are superior in nearly every way to any other type, unless you prefer the added "envolvment" of a third pedal (which I do, even though one of my cars has the DSG). It's not fair or reasonable to lump them in with traditional automatics for the purposes of enthusiast discussions.

However, to clam that this test was unfair because 2 were manuals and one is an auto is a bit of a stretch.
 
#68 ·
You guys are making things too complicated. Two things matter in a transmission:

1. Who changes the gears
"manual" or "automatic"

2. How the power is transmitted.
direct mechanical connection via 1 or more clutches, or through a fluid coupling via a torque converter.

The problem with traditional automatics is that they transmit power through a non-direct fluid coupling...
The has only been true for first gear for many years. Most, if not all, modern torque convertor-equipped planetary gearboxes lock the convertor from 2nd on up.

I used to think that the planetary gearset was less efficient than the constant-mesh helical cut gears in most manuals, but now I'm not so sure. Nowadays I think a lot of the inefficiency is due to having to drive the hydraulic pumps for the shifting mechanism. When the convertor and internal clutches are locked, they're locked. Don't most DCTs user electromechanical servos?

In any event, DCTs are fast shifters--no doubt, but planetarys can be made to shift very fast as well--but at some point, in an inverse relationship with service intervals! Save for the Bugatti's purpose-built and very expensive (to build AND service) DCT, planetaries can also be built to take much more power than conventional constant-mesh manual gearboxes--again, at some point, in an inverse relationship with service intervals.
 
#67 ·
I would add a third thing that matters.. reliability. You will notice that the only current stock "production car" running a DCT/DSG/MCT/PDK type transmission with torque figures above 516lbs-ft is the Bugatti Veyron. I would be curious to see how the Porsche PDK takes to higher hp/tq modifications. I think the new MB 5.4L TT-V8 is also going to be running an MCT tranny with 590lbs-ft of torque (660lbs-ft with AMG Performance package). I am sure they are going to thoroughly test the reliability, but no one has reviewed this tranny yet to see if any of the new, more robust internal pieces, are going to interfere with its functionality.

Tom
 
#70 ·
It still depends on who your are talking to. A performance enthusiast should know the basic differences between the tranmissions. Dont expect the average buyer to know this yet, tho. Try convincing my sister that she drives a manual (DSG) Golf, and she will argue till shes blue in the face that its an auto because she doesnt have to shift. Better yet, ask my good friend what trans his LP560 has, and he will say "automatic".

Saying that you cant compare an automatic to an automated manual is similar to saying you cant compare a dohc to a pushrod.

I cross shopped an M3 with the CTS-V Coupe even tho theyre supposedly in different classes....
 
#71 ·
Yeah,... I guess got a point. One that Vette pointed out also. I guess I just assumed that everyone in here were performance enthusiasts, and was a little disappointed upon discovering that that might not be the case. Or until what appeared on the surface to be the case. But Vette was pullin' my leg it appears,... bet he was rolling all over the floor with the knowledge he could push any of my buttons at will. LOL!

I sorta cross shopped the M3 three as well. I say sorta because in reality I was cross shopping the M3 against the C63,... but that didn't last long. In the end, I more shoppped the C63 vs the V. The V is in a different class. Caddy is about to release their 3 series/C-class competitor soon from what I understand. But I do understand though,... pricing similarities makes it easy to jump back-n-forth between classes. Real easy! If you or I started out shopping for an M3 because you felt that's what you budget could handle, but found an uncle who said, "I'm disgusted with the world today, I'm gonna go live on a deserted island,... if you want my brand new one month old 2010 M6, just assume the pay-off. And after doing we math, we discovered that his healthy down payment put the pay-off at or near the same as the full price on a showroom M3, just how long do you think it would take for either of us to jump from a 3 series BMW to a 6 series BMW? Still,... that doesn't mean that C&D or MT to put these two in bed together for a shoot out! Still,... I got your point. Just wished the mags would have done a better job of matching classes, not prices. While knowing what's the best I can buy for 70k is good, I'd also like to know which of the cars in a particular class is best.
 
#73 ·
Wow,... are you serious? A premium badge that originally sold in the 100 to 105 range is now bargain basement at 70! I got a feeling folks like us may be holding off on the 6.3 NA's opting for waiting on the 5.5 TT's. I've heard these same is happening over in the BMW camp,... their sales are way down too. I know BMW hasn't released a 2011 V10,... did MB release a 2011 6.3 or are all the E-Class AMG's 2010 models?
 
#74 ·
Very true; the allocation was high from MBZ factory so the dealers had to blow them out. MBZ made a huge mistake going cheap on the '10 interiors too (sorry to beat that subject into the ground again...), w/the standard headliner, standard dash, plastics, etc. The '11 models are going back to alcantara headliner, stitched leather dash, etc. When peeps are paying $100k for a car they seem to want it fully loaded.
 
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