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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Car runs rough and dies at idle, increasing rpm to 2,000 rpm or higher, car, although still misfiring, it is drivable. Engine light on and codes P0300, 302, 304, 306, 089, 087 and 016.
Drove car to dealer and was told that it needed a timing chain for the cost of $2,900. Have read that this engine has timing chain issues, although with skepticism, I approved the repair. After about 2 weeks called dealer to get updates and was told that after replacing the chain, the cam actuators were also bad, but would not add to the cost of the repair, OK. 3 weeks past and I called to get updates and was told that the issue was not fixed and a new engine was needed for a whopping $9K.
Based on the original codes, does this sound like a new engine was needed? Or did the dealer screw something up?
Not sure what to think, any insights from your experienced folks would be appreciated.
JH
 

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Welcome to Cadillac Forums, Jhorta- sorry to learn of your predicament.

Can you furnish more details?
Year, model, engine, miles, length of ownership, service history...
Also the codes WITH their definitions would be helpful.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
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Thanks! Bought car new in 2008 CTS, premium Lux model, it has 85,000 miles, oil changes at every 4 to 5 thousand mile intervals. Did the normal recalls of disabling headlamp washers and logarithms to change frequency of oil changes. No other issues since I鈥檝e owned it.
Picture attached with code details:
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Does anyone have any input on this? Curious to hear your thoughts and comments.
Thks, JH
 

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Those codes don't scream NEW ENGINE! to me, but we're only working with minimal details.
I think a second opinion is definitely in order which could prove easier said than done if the vehicle is in the dealer's possession.
Have you had other services performed here or is this your first interaction?
 

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Doesn't appear any real diagnostic procedure was performed beyond a code read and a quick jump to conclude the timing chains needed to be replaced. Misfire on all 3 driver side cylinders and 1 code referencing the timing chains is a good indicator, but the low fuel pressure reading is a confounder and given one bank of cylinders is misfiring, a compression/leak down test would have been a wise idea before tearing into it to determine if valves were bent, as early timing chain codes alone are not typically accompanied by the inability to drive as normal. It's usually just the annoyance of the engine light initially.

The fuel pressure code might be the result of the even bank of cylinders causing a lean condition as a result of a sudden chain jump out of synch, and the computers inability to bring the engine back into tune despite maxing out pump pressure. It may sound like a stretch, but how engine management responds depends on programming, that's the reason the first sign of an alternator failure is often a loss of power steering warning, instead of a "Check charging system" warning.

Why does the motor need to be replaced is my next question, if they put new chains and actuators on it, there were no signs of internal damage. I think you got the intern for diagnosis and repair.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Those codes don't scream NEW ENGINE! to me, but we're only working with minimal details.
I think a second opinion is definitely in order which could prove easier said than done if the vehicle is in the dealer's possession.
Have you had other services performed here or is this your first interaction?
This is my first interaction here and at this dealer. After replacing the timing chain and actuators, they are now saying that the cam gap with the valves is out of spec and that鈥檚 why a new engine or new head is needed. Not real sure how they know this without taking the engine apart.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Doesn't appear any real diagnostic procedure was performed beyond a code read and a quick jump to conclude the timing chains needed to be replaced. Misfire on all 3 driver side cylinders and 1 code referencing the timing chains is a good indicator, but the low fuel pressure reading is a confounder and given one bank of cylinders is misfiring, a compression/leak down test would have been a wise idea before tearing into it to determine if valves were bent, as early timing chain codes alone are not typically accompanied by the inability to drive as normal. It's usually just the annoyance of the engine light initially.

The fuel pressure code might be the result of the even bank of cylinders causing a lean condition as a result of a sudden chain jump out of synch, and the computers inability to bring the engine back into tune despite maxing out pump pressure. It may sound like a stretch, but how engine management responds depends on programming, that's the reason the first sign of an alternator failure is often a loss of power steering warning, instead of a "Check charging system" warning.

Why does the motor need to be replaced is my next question, if they put new chains and actuators on it, there were no signs of internal damage. I think you got the intern for diagnosis and repair.
Yes agree, although I鈥檓 only an ocasional backyard mechanic, in my mind I don鈥檛 see how misfiring of one bank of cylinders ends up requiring a new engine, specially when the engine runs at higher rpm鈥檚, without any knocking noises. Just may have to eat up the cost of a new engine, since the car is in excellent shape.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yes agree, although I鈥檓 only an ocasional backyard mechanic, in my mind I don鈥檛 see how misfiring of one bank of cylinders ends up requiring a new engine, specially when the engine runs at higher rpm鈥檚, without any knocking noises. Just may have to eat up the cost of a new engine, since the car is in excellent shape.
Could the mechanic have damaged something when replacing the timing chain and actuators? They are telling me now that the engine is not running now, when I asked that I may want to take the car somewhere else for a second opinion.
 

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Could the mechanic have damaged something when replacing the timing chain and actuators? They are telling me now that the engine is not running now, when I asked that I may want to take the car somewhere else for a second opinion.
It is certainly in the realm of possibility.
 

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Could be they botched the chain job and turned the engine and bent the valves
 

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Unless we're missing some very important details, this sounds like a classic case of customer sponsored on the job training.
 

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After replacing the timing chain and actuators, they are now saying that the cam gap with the valves is out of spec and that鈥檚 why a new engine or new head is needed...
Now that's a nice way of saying the valves are bent without saying "the valves are bent" and not able to hold the cam followers (aka rockers) against the cam lobes, because they can no longer seat, hence the gap.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Now that's a nice way of saying the valves are bent without saying "the valves are bent" and not able to hold the cam followers (aka rockers) against the cam lobes, because they can no longer seat, hence the gap.
Could they have screwed up the installation of the timing chain and bent the valves? This car does have the DI non-interference engine, but I鈥檓 not sure if that really matters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Unless we're missing some very important details, this sounds like a classic case of customer sponsored on the job training.
Yeap鈥 seems that way, and No important details missing, I bought this car new and been meticulous on it鈥檚 maintenance.
 

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Could they have screwed up the installation of the timing chain and bent the valves? This car does have the DI non-interference engine, but I鈥檓 not sure if that really matters.
At a glance I'd have to state it's hard to say given the initial symptoms, on the other hand, given the progression of events; You drove it to them, they replaced the timing chains, came back and said they also need to replace the actuators and now they're saying you need a new motor and after all of their efforts, it no longer runs. The possibility is high.
 

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At a glance I'd have to state it's hard to say given the initial symptoms, on the other hand, given the progression of events; You drove it to them, they replaced the timing chains, came back and said they also need to replace the actuators and now they're saying you need a new motor and after all of their efforts, it no longer runs. The possibility is high.
This reminds me (on a much, much smaller scale) of a dealership experience I had. My SSEi was in for warranty work on the upper engine when I received a call from my SA directing me that I needed to pony up for a plug wire that needed replacement. I sternly advised her that my car arrived firing on 6 cylinders and if the tech did his work properly I will pick it up firing on 6 cylinders.

There was no further discussion after that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
At a glance I'd have to state it's hard to say given the initial symptoms, on the other hand, given the progression of events; You drove it to them, they replaced the timing chains, came back and said they also need to replace the actuators and now they're saying you need a new motor and after all of their efforts, it no longer runs. The possibility is high.
My thoughts exactly, but how can I prove that they blew up my engine? That鈥檚 my dilemma!!!
 

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My thoughts exactly, but how can I prove that they blew up my engine? That鈥檚 my dilemma!!!
It will be difficult for you without knowing all of the right questions to ask, to firmly indicate they charged you by the labor manual, but they did not service your car by the repair manual. Bent valves are ruled in, or out before the timing chain and then actuator install. If they are being truthful about the actuator install sequence, clearly someone messed up, as that's a lot of work to have been avoided and replacing four actuators using the special tool for the process means four chances to have accidentally installed one out of timing.

Not every repair needs to have the book open, but a reasonably sufficient diagnostic approach should be followed to avoid situations like this. This is an interference engine, and misfires over one bank and a timing code would have definitely had me reaching for my compression tester and or listening to the intake ports at the throttle body on all 3 hand cranked compression strokes for the sound of leaking valves.

Form an opinion on what you think may have happened. I'd ask why the car no longer runs given you drove it there and the components should have made it better. If they say it stopped running shortly after you dropped it off, or didn't run after the timing chains were installed, ask how they knew it needed actuators if it didn't run. Then decide whether or not you need to state what you believe may have happened.
 
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