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2005 Deville intermittent miss at idle

5K views 40 replies 6 participants last post by  Submariner409 
#1 ·
Hello! New kid, here. First time Cadillac owner, so far I'm happy.
Sorry for the long post, but through my reading here, I know some of you are just like me and need details.

Just bought a 2005 Deville base model with 134000 on the clock. Car runs well with the exception of an intermittent miss at idle.
Previous owner advised that the intake manifold was replaced due to the PCV tube being broke out of the passenger side of the manifold.
Shortly after purchase, the service engine light came on. Advanced Auto scanned (didn't know I could do it myself) and determined cat was bad.
I replaced the cat (and because I'm a bit of a "parts thrower") I replaced all the O2 sensors. Service engine light is off, but miss continues.Replaced the plugs( they weren't real bad, but I feel better knowing they're new).
Miss is now intermittent, down to about once or twice a minute at idle. At this point I'm figuring vacuum leak. While investigating I find that the PCV hose from the rear valve cover is collapsing while engine is running. Upon closer examination I discover it isn't even vacuum line and doesn't fit well. Now my faith in the previous owners mechanical ability is shaken. I decide to pull the intake to see if there are any other surprises. He re-used the old gaskets. I replaced the intake gaskets, injector o-rings, and the boot between the manifold and throttle body. Also the PCV line. Miss clears for about a day then returns.
I check codes and find a couple related the the Hvac, radio and tire pressure sensors. Cleared the codes last night and haven't driven the car yet today.

If any of you are still reading this... got any ideas where a guy could look?
Any and all help will be much appreciated.
Jake
 
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#2 ·
regarding codes -
P0300 is a generic misfire code -
our on-board scanners will not display WHICH cylinder is misfiring -
although that information IS stored in the computer -

take the car to any big auto parts store and ask them to check the codes -
P0301 is a misfire in cylinder #1 - P0302 is cylinder #2 - P0303 is for cylinder #3 - etc-

once you discover WHICH cylinder is misfiring -
diagnosis is MUCH easier -

---------------------------
with that said - a couple questions come to mind -
did you install the genuine ACDelco 41-987 spark plugs?

what did the old plugs look like?

did you clean/inspect the TB - Throttle Body?

did you clean/inspect the ISC - Idle Speed Control - solenoid?
AND the tiny air passage in the TB?

with 134K miles - you could have a sticking/dirty fuel injector -
the ONLY additive we ever recommend is a 20oz bottle of TECRON -
 
#4 ·
Should have mentioned there were NO power train codes.

The old plugs weren't bad, but I figured since they were out and I already had the new (yes, AC Delco 41-987) I'd go ahead and replace them. I looked at the throttle body in passing, but I didn't look very hard.
I will revisit the TB and the ISC. Would you have any links for properly inspecting the ISC?
I have been using Lucas fuel additive, but will try Tecron if I can find it. There are no Chevron stations in Oklahoma. Hafta try the parts houses.
Thank you so much for your speedy reply.
Jake
 
#6 · (Edited)
Should have mentioned there were NO power train codes.

The old plugs weren't bad, but I figured since they were out and I already had the new (yes, AC Delco 41-987) I'd go ahead and replace them. I looked at the throttle body in passing, but I didn't look very hard.
I will revisit the TB and the ISC. Would you have any links for properly inspecting the ISC?
I have been using Lucas fuel additive, but will try Tecron if I can find it. There are no Chevron stations in Oklahoma. Hafta try the parts houses.
Thank you so much for your speedy reply.
Jake
=====================
will try Tecron if I can find it. There are no Chevron stations in Oklahoma. Hafta try the parts houses.
walmart sells it
 
#8 ·
TECHRON is a powerful fuel system cleaner and a bottle is recommended only once every 5,000 miles. It's carried by about every parts store in the country.

Study up on TopTier gasolines - Chevron TECHRON under several proprietary names is a component of the TopTier additive package.


Motor oil Product Material property Tire Automotive wheel system
 
#10 ·
Even COSTCO gasoline is TopTier approved. So is Valero. Most U.S. gasolines are approved.

Many different brands of gasoline come from the same refinery ..................all depends on which depot the pipeline goes through. When was the last time you saw a name brand gasoline tanker truck dumping at a gas station ?


Note this picture of an unmarked tanker dumping at a Chevron station.

Fuel tank Vehicle Transport Storage tank Trailer
 
#16 ·
The only time there is a CEL is during WOT just before it shifts to second gear the light starts flashing. If you back off the throttle the light flashes for about 20 to 30 seconds then goes out. Performance doesn't seem to suffer, but I have never stayed in it after the light flashes.
I pulled codes. None of the lists I could find contain all or a very good description:

IPC P1004 H Couldn't find a definition.

IPM P0249 H Turbocharger Wastegate Solenoid 2 Low Voltage (but guess what car doesn't have a turbo)

IPM P0419 C Secondary Air Injection (AIR) Pump Relay Control Circuit Bank 2.

IPM P0429 C Couldn't find a definition.

IRC U1016 H Loss of Class 2 Communication with PCM.

RFA B3109 C 3 consecutive low battery signals from the same programmed transmitter. I think this means I need a new set of tire pressure sensors.

I suppose an issue with the air pump could cause a miss, but I would expect it to be regular, steady and not intermittent.
I have issues with the HVAC controlling the outlets and the passenger side temp (clicks under dash on start-up), but i'm going to take it to someone more limber than I am for that tomorrow.
Still at a loss.
Thanks,
Jake
 
#17 ·
I suppose an issue with the air pump could cause a miss, but I would expect it to be regular, steady and not intermittent.
No. The AIR pump works only for about 45 seconds or so after a cold start to pump oxygen into the exhaust system to light the CAT more quickly. After that, it's just along for the ride. It's an emission thing. It will not cause a misfire.

The flashing SES light is telling you there is a misfire, but I can't see any codes that would cause that. It should have set a P0300 (misfire) code.

I can't find a P1004 either, but there is a B1004 Keep Alive Memory (KAM) .

B0429 Temperature Control #3 Rear Circuit Range/Performance is your clicking problem.
 
#19 ·
Jake, I know all this is getting tiresome, put push on forward. When I first started checking codes, it seems they went by really fast and I didn't always get it written down correctly. SO, use your smart phone and take video of the DIC as the codes roll by. You can then pause as needed to be sure you've copied it correctly. Lastly, listen to Bass--his tag "master of the dark art.." is true. It ain't bragging if you can do it.
 
#20 ·
Thanks guys, I cleared the codes as I was writing them down, so I'll have to run it a bit to get them back.
Basscatt I will be more diligent when copying them next time, I don't doubt that you are correct about me mis-scribing them, but I'm positive there was no P0300 codes.
Byrdman, I'll use your idea and film them for later review.
Going to have someone that folds in the middle better than me look at the HVAC shortly, I'm guessing two actuators, drivers side blend door and passenger temp control.
I'll be back with answers later,
Thanks,
Jake
 
#21 ·
OK, I'm baaaaack.
Replaced three door actuators, two on drivers side, one on pass. side. Clicking is gone and air seems to be discharged in the appropriate places and at the correct temps, mommy is happy to have cool air back on her side. Cleared the previous codes and went for a drive. As I discovered earlier in this thread, I don't copy well in a hurry.
So the only codes left are: IPM B0249 - Heater/Defrost/AC Door Range Error.
RFA B3109 - I couldn't find B3109, but there is a B3108 that says "DTC B3108 Transmitter Synchronization Failure".
Both codes are current. There are no other codes, current or History.
I'm wondering if one of the door actuators didn't go in exactly right, but it seems to be working ok.

But, back to the original reason for this thread: Still have an intermittent miss. Anybody got some spare C-4?
I am stuck.

Thanks,
Jake
 
#25 ·
Here I go again. I have all the previous codes cleared. And i still have a miss.
I have:
Replaced cat and O2 sensors (all) intake gaskets, plugs, PCV line, injector O-rings, top and bottom, air filter, plenum boot, TB gaskets. Cleaned TB and ISC.
I still have a miss. It's not only at idle, you can feel it miss at WOT at redline just before it shifts. This is a steady miss. The SES light starts flashing and stops flashing after about 20 - 30 seconds, sometimes sooner than others. I have done the WOT "cleaning" routine suggested by that GM engineer in the NorthStar write-up several times. The SES light flashes every time. It never sets a code. I don't normally revert to cussing, but, what the hell, I'm more than stumped. I think I'm down to replacing the coils. I was looking at Rockauto for coils. They have singles, and sets of 4. My car has individual coils (8). Does that Tell me anything? Has my ignition been updated? Does anyone have something I can try? Please?
 
#26 · (Edited)
Here I go again. I have all the previous codes cleared. And i still have a miss.
I have:
Replaced cat and O2 sensors (all) intake gaskets, plugs, PCV line, injector O-rings, top and bottom, air filter, plenum boot, TB gaskets. Cleaned TB and ISC.
I still have a miss. It's not only at idle, you can feel it miss at WOT at redline just before it shifts. This is a steady miss. The SES light starts flashing and stops flashing after about 20 - 30 seconds, sometimes sooner than others. I have done the WOT "cleaning" routine suggested by that GM engineer in the NorthStar write-up several times. The SES light flashes every time. It never sets a code. I don't normally revert to cussing, but, what the hell, I'm more than stumped. I think I'm down to replacing the coils. I was looking at Rockauto for coils. They have singles, and sets of 4. My car has individual coils (8). Does that Tell me anything? Has my ignition been updated? Does anyone have something I can try? Please?
=====================
it's hard to believe that you can get a flashing SES light -
but no codes are stored - VERY strange -

just want to verify that you are using the on-board scanner to pull codes -

YES - the problem COULD be faulty coils -
failing at the "extreme" - high RPM - maximum power output -
unfortunately - there is no easy way to test the coils without the TECH2 scan tool -
and I HATE just throwing parts at a problem and HOPING something works -

the ORIGINAL coil PACK is a set of four individual coils grouped together -
you can NOT replace single coils -
with the "updated" design - you CAN replace single coils -

FUEL delivery is also a possibility - and there ARE some tests that you can perform -

fuel pressure test -
connect a fuel pressure gauge at the fuel rail
with a long enough hose so you can observe the gauge while driving -

test the fuel injectors -
use an OHM meter and measure the resistance of each injector -
they MUST be almost identical -
 
#32 ·
It has been a bit since I updated this. I had issues trying to test the injectors, only got the use of one hand. I was thinking... if I got a replacement injector pigtail and rigged it to my DVOM I could connect to each injector one at a time fairly easy. The resistance might read a little higher than norm, but it should be close enough to see if the injectors are close enough to each other, right?
Thoughts?
We just made the drive to Bullhead City, Arizona from Tulsa, Oklahoma. The miss got worse. It now does it while pulling grades and still while sitting at idle, in gear or not. Turning the A/C compressor off seems to help a little.
I'm going to look into finding an injector pigtail to help check the injectors, not willing to waste the money on a coil, swapping them out would be too big a pita for me.
I've asked in the lounge if anyone knows of a good N* tech in my neck of the woods.
Oh, yea, Still no relevant codes or SES light.
I hope someone responds to the other post I'm stumped.
 
#33 ·
Did I ask about checking the spark plug boots during the plug change? They NEED to be inspected for tracking and, if pristine, use a smear of silicone dielectric grease in each tip. Increased engine loads increase the likelihood of spark miss.

DELPHI is a parts and research division of GM ..............


An A/C compressor uses 6 - 10 hp to run it so turning it off eases engine load somewhat. It takes about 55 - 65 hp to move the car down the Interstate at around 65 - 70 mph so any extra load increases power demand and lowers fuel mileage. Even at that speed the throttle blade is open only 8 - 10 % - there is very little airflow into the engine until you go to wide open throttle.
 
#34 ·
You probably did ask about the boots, but I haven't taken the time to check them what with packing and moving and all. The link and reference to Delphi shows 4 coil sets, my car has 8 individual coils. Can the 4 coil sets be disassembled? It looks like it in the photos on RockAuto. If so, I could score the coils for $29. bucks apiece for Delphi. I'll have to look at them tomorrow.
 
#35 ·
It's been a bit, but I finally got some satisfaction! It has taken a long time due to the cost of moving to Arizona. I Finally found a shop that would take the time to talk to an old man and not be disrespectful when I mention N*. Just can't bring myself to trust the stealships yet. Paid for a diagnosis, carbon tracks on plugs. So I had to come up with funding for coils and plugs. Shop wanted over $1000 to do it for me, and wasn't willing to put the $80 diag fee towards the bill. I just thought I found a reasonable shop. Settled on Delphi coils from RockAuto. Front bank was easy, even one handed. Back bank was a different story. Moving the AIR check valve out of the way was a bear! Grandson helped, he's a lifesaver. I am thrilled to announce that my Deville is running like a top. I was surprised and pleased to see how well it performed. Gentlemen I thank you for your continued help and support. Being a recovering addict and alcoholic, it is with great symbolism I say "I lift my glass in gratitude."
Blue Technology Electric blue Purple Cobalt blue
 
#36 ·
Jake, may I use your picture as a classic example of carbon tracking ???

The black lightning strikes are a perfect short to ground under load.

Product Purple Violet Magenta Cosmetics


And an honest question - did you use silicone dielectric ignition grease in the tip of each plug boot ? It seals the plug insulator from condensation moisture.

 
#39 ·
Sub, I used it this time. It doesn't appear that the guy that changed the plugs in Oklahoma did. It is something I always use. I never let anyone work on my cars or trucks before I had my stroke, but now it's hard to find a shop that will let you watch.
As for using my picture, yes you may, if it helps illustrate to someone why to do it right, then that's my part in helping.
Ranger, yes to the boots, I changed the plugs and coils, (2 complete sets of 4 coils, boots, wire harnesses and mounting plates.) Delphi units from RockAuto.
Again, thank you so much to all that helped solve this.
 
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