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2003 Deville may need head bolts any shop recommendations in a reasonable distance from NC?

3K views 34 replies 8 participants last post by  ap41563 
#1 ·
Good evening everyone,

As the title says I have a 2003 Deville that you all have helped me keep alive over the past 54,000 miles and past 4 years and I can not thank you enough. The car has had coolant changes every 2 years and coolant crossover gasket and recovery tank( to stop getting the check coolant level message) along with the purge line (last year) as well as a water pump done( in 2015). The car has 150,003 (as of this writing) and still has its original radiator. Over the weekend I took it on a 200 mile road trip that involved climbing an 8% grade for 8 miles. This is a trip the car has been on a dozen times over the past 4 years and it's never had any issues.

The car was running at 195-205 degrees most of the trip, ambient air temperature outside was 85-90 degrees at 70 mph
After the climb up the mountain the car was running 230 degrees and the ambient air temperature was at 70 degrees at 60 mph

After that the last part of the trip is 20 miles on reasonably level ground and the car went back to running at at about 205 or so and the car didn't run much higher when I got to my destination. I ran around town for the day and again the car was running in that 195-205 degree range. The next day I ran some errands around town and for the most part the car didn't run overly warm. Until another long pull up a hill about 1 mile and a 200 ft elevation change and the car shot up to 230 degrees again.

Drove the car 200 miles home yesterday evening and the car runs in that 195-205 temperature coming down from 3,333 elevation to roughly 600 ft elevation no issues with it getting overly warm etc. light traffic but fast speeds of 70 mph ( I did no hard passing runs as the car never got over 2,500 rpm as I was babying it home)

Get home and start to read every thing on here and start weighing my options, on what it could be and what I need to do. Although my car never truly overheats and nothing comes up on the DIC as others have mentioned on here, I'm really concerned.

Today I go to purchase the head gasket test kit with the blue fluid. (Did use this test at 130k last year and it passed with no issues) I'm have my helper put the car in gear and rev the engine which is warm at 190 degrees to 1500 rpm, after about two minutes the fluid has not turned yellow (maybe a lighter blue) but not green. The recovery tank starts to shoot coolant out of it, so I tell him to shut the engine off. I ask him what the temperature was reading and he says the engine temperature was reading at 220 degrees which means it went from 190 to 220 in less than 2 minutes with load on the engine.

I'd like know if you all are in agreement with me that this is the signs of early head gasket failure?

If so and I need to do the head gaskets Does anyone have any recommendations for a shop near North Carolina that would install Jake's Northstarperformance kit? (After reading everything I think his kit is the only way to go ) While I am at it I probably would also have the engine resealed as it has some oil seepage as well. I am willing to travel to have the work done I just want it done right.

As always thank you for your advice and help.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Well since we are both at a distance in n.c. I had a over heating problem for awhile mine would play tricks be normal then needle move to temp high then it would go normal again after about 30 seconds or so. i tried the pressure test kit at the reservoir with different adaptors i was unsuccessful on finding anything. i took it to my mechanic he did a test found a pin hole leak in radiator, also mention both belts and tension pully needed to be replaced , called back later said one more problem a leak in a/c line. i had already replaced thermostat last year and didn't realize i had the other major problems. point is check other areas that contribute to over heating. it may help because from what your saying seems like it would be costly on that route unless you can find somebody with a credit line as well. please no dealership.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I would not be convinced of HG failure without a positive 'gas test' result, bubbling in the coolant, steam in exhaust, plug check, compression, etc. Guess im oldschool/cautious. 2or3 combined.

The difference of 'consuming' water or 'leaking/losing' water is to be looked at closely.

'Power Braking' can very well raise the temp. How much/how fast is hard to say, but sitting still and no fans on to start with, the entire condition of everything comes into play.
 
#5 ·
Yes I agree I think climbing the grade did show that the head gasket is in the early stages on starting to let go.

It's not been using coolant or leaking coolant as I've been keep an eye on it as the car has aged. I check the coolant level every time I get gas as well as checking the oil. (It's kind of funny people usually ask me at the gas station if something is wrong and I need help, and I always say "Nothings wrong it's just old and you have to keep an eye on things)

When I did the block test the coolant in the recovery tank did start to bubble overheat as the temperature shot over 220 all the coolant boiled out of the tank. I have been checking on the fans and both were turning at the time the test was being done.

I may have found a local shop here that may be willing to do the work but they only have experience using the

TIME-SERT Insert Kit

They have a dedicated Cadillac Technician with 25 years experience with Nothstar's and using the TIME-SERT KIT was the way he trained to repair them (when he worked for the Cadillac Dealer) and they have had successful repairs of all the cars they have done (which to date was 15)

I thought that there were plenty of people who have done the TIME-SERT Kit but had it fail after 20-50k miles.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?
 
#6 ·
Well, I have assembled everything from model plane engines to 50,000hp driven compressors. Plenty of car engines, DIY greasemonkey to cleanroom highend race engines.

STUDS. Anything less is simply less. Nothing has better, more accurate clamping and torqueing results.

Beancounters like bolts, they are faster/cheaper in high production. Good enough in most applications.
 
#7 ·
The original head bolt hole insert process, developed by Time Fastener Corp., was the smaller, fine thread TimeSert. Some years ago, due to failure rates, the design for the Northstar was changed to a larger outer diameter with coarse threads - the BigSert.

Another variation on the theme is to use the NS300L insert kit from www.huhnsolutions.com

Nothing wrong with inserts, correctly done. There are many thousands of engines around the world running on inserts.

Regardless, you need to use new GM head bolts or the correct ARP studs screwed into the inserts - and there are special torque-twist tightening procedures for each solution.

The elegant solution to inserts/studs/nuts/washers is the Northstar Performance stud kit which uses the large diameter coarse threads already machined onto the stud itself.
 
#9 ·
The original head bolt hole insert process, developed by Time Fastener Corp., was the smaller, fine thread TimeSert. Some years ago, due to failure rates, the design for the Northstar was changed to a larger outer diameter with coarse threads - the BigSert.

Another variation on the theme is to use the NS300L insert kit from www.huhnsolutions.com

Nothing wrong with inserts, correctly done. There are many thousands of engines around the world running on inserts.

Regardless, you need to use new GM head bolts or the correct ARP studs screwed into the inserts - and there are special torque-twist tightening procedures for each solution.

The elegant solution to inserts/studs/nuts/washers is the Northstar Performance stud kit which uses the large diameter coarse threads already machined onto the stud itself.

Thank you for weighing in Sub, It's a a shop now for a professional opinion to see if we are in agreement that it is the head gasket, and if it is they might consider doing the work. I guess I'll know something in a few days. I called around my area and and spoke with 10 shops and all turned me down for the job. I'm in a large city so this is a little bit of a heart break.

I just hate the thought of junking the car with the condition it's in.
 
#8 ·
I like the stud strength as that extra bit of security,

However

Having done the in the car HG repair, I would go with inserts next time. The clearance needed for the right side/rear head is nearly impossible to obtain when using studs. Fortunately, I had enough jack stands etc to drop the front of the engine and raise the back to get it all done.
 
#10 ·
I like the stud strength as that extra bit of security,

However

Having done the in the car HG repair, I would go with inserts next time. The clearance needed for the right side/rear head is nearly impossible to obtain when using studs. Fortunately, I had enough jack stands etc to drop the front of the engine and raise the back to get it all done.
Yea I have a feeling I'm going to end up having to go with what the shop wants to do the job the way they want to do it vs. the way I want them to do it.
 
#12 ·
I should have mentioned this yesterday but I forgot!

When making the trip to the shop (car has been sitting this all happened) went back in and added coolant to the tank to get it up to the “Normal” level. Before starting the car. Drove the car 3 miles it started to get warm (220) Pulled over and the tank was of course dry so I filled poured the rest of the 1 gallon jug I had with me.

The car was running at 205 for the rest of the trip (at 60 mph) with the air tempature outside being 100. I ran the heat at 90 to just be on the safe side arrived at the shop car still was at 205 and the overflow tank was sitting at the correct mark. I figured I lost only about 1 gallon of coolant from my “Block test experience”
 
#13 ·
The Northstar cooling system uses a full-flow heater core at all times - no coolant metering valve. Interior air temp is a product of outside and interior blended air, not coolant flow. Running the heat function in hot weather really accomplishes nothing as the thermostat acts on the block, heads, AND heater circuit. 190 - 215 is perfectly normal coolant temp for this weather - and fans don't even go to SLOW until 224 degrees, FAST at 236 - so anything below 250 is NOT "hot". Overheat occurs above 265 or so.

Fans run in SLOW any time an A/C compressor function is set. They do not normally run at speeds over 30 - 35 mph - not needed.

Have you studied the several sticky threads concerning the cooling system - in Engines; Northstar ?
 
#15 ·
Yes and I've noticed even with the fans kicking over from SLOW to HIGH, it does not seem drop the engine temperature by 5-10 degrees as others mentioned on here. My temperature seems to be constant at 225-230 when the engine is climbing a grade , my concern was with a lower ambient air temperature and the car doing the same drive many times this was the first time the temperature has spiked like this. I know in the end I may be worrying about nothing


I've been down the rabbit hole of the cooling system threads last year when I replaced the coolant crossover gasket and now this last experience the past 5 hours reading the sticky and other conversations. It's very interesting to read the threads from 2000-08 vs. the threads in more recent history.

As usual I now have more questions than ever!
 
#14 ·
#16 ·
I can't find where you have checked the purge line for flow. If that line or its hollow bolt/nipple is clogged then the cooling system retains air bubbles, the water pump loses flow, and overheats occur. If that line is clogged the heater core air binds and when it "burps" you get impressive coolant bubbling - the lower surge tank line on the Deville rides on a heater coolant line.

The purge line runs from the high point on the water crossover over to the upper side of the surge tank - it should flow a steady stream at idle, increasing somewhat as rpm is raised.

Disconnect the line at the crossover and rod out the bolt/nipple - at least 2" deep. Make sure the purge line/pipe is clear. If the purge line pipe i hopelessly clogged you can replace the entire thing with a length of correct sized reinforced rubber fuel hose and 2 band clamps from any parts store.



Auto part Automotive engine part Engine Transmission part Automotive super charger part
 
#17 ·
I can't find where you have checked the purge line for flow. If that line or its hollow bolt/nipple is clogged then the cooling system retains air bubbles, the water pump loses flow, and overheats occur. If that line is clogged the heater core air binds and when it "burps" you get impressive coolant bubbling - the lower surge tank line on the Deville rides on a heater coolant line.
Submariner, I did check the purge line for flow when this all started happening and I think we are good there, the flow does increase as I increase the throttle. I have a new cap on the coolant tank and I do get pressure releasing when I open the tank. I think the system is working as designed.
 
#19 ·
If you checked the coolant level in the surge tank at 220°...and it boiled away...well you removed the pressure cap and the coolant is now no longer under pressure. Water boils at 212° and an antifreeze mix is probably a little higher, so normal boiling at 220 could be perfectly normal.
As for inserts/studs, both are fine. I've done about six so far (inserts) with no problems.
I'd consider studs, but can't justify the tooling. If it 'aint broke, don't fix it.
 
#21 ·
Hey everyone sorry for my delay in an update. It has taken the shop a while to look at the car. I went to pick it up yesterday and of course they said “Can not duplicate” the problem. They wouldn’t do the block test of the engine while it was “under load” as they were concerned they would cause damage to due to age/mileage of the engine.

I agree with you in my attempt to do the block test and put the engine under load to verify the presence of exhaust gas the coolant boiled out at the 220 degree mark which would add up as the system wasn’t pressurized.


How the car went from 185 to 220 degrees in 1 minute and 30 seconds with load on the engine at 1500 rpm is still interesting to me.

I’ve only driven in about 100 miles between yesterday and today and the car is running between 195 to 210 depending on the idling time, so things are about as they should be granted it has also been 20 degrees cooler here over the past 2 days.

I agree with you in my attempt to do the block test and put the engine under load to verify the presence of exhaust gas the coolant boiled out at the 220 degree mark which would add up as the system wasn’t pressurized.

I am fortunate that I don’t have any significant grades/hills around me to duplicate the issue. I’m just going to keep engine coolant with me in the car and drive it, and see what it does next.

Thank you for the boiling Temperatures that will be helpful for sure.

Is our system supposed to be pressurized to 18 psi is that correct?
 
#22 · (Edited)
The ambient temperature - whether 25 or 105 degrees - has little effect on system temperature except to vary "warmup" times. The engine - with a properly operating cooling system - will maintain the desired temperature (thermostat-set) day in and day out. It's designed to run at 190 - 215 normally, with occasional spikes to above 220 in heavy traffic or under excess loads if some A/C compressor function is not set. If some A/C function is called for, the fans run in SLOW all the time so temp variations will be slow to occur and will be damped for amplitude.

The recommended later Northstar surge tank cap is set to bleed pressure at 18 psi - that does NOT mean the system operates at 18 psi all the time. System pressure will rise and fall somewhat as the coolant expands and contracts due to engine load changes.

That airspace over the coolant in the surge tank is the air "spring" against which expanding and contracting coolant creates system pressure.

However, at normal temps the upper radiator hose should be hard. Depending on actual coolant/ambient temp that hose may be warm, quite warm, or just plain HOT !!! Go ahead - stick your fingers into a pan of 212 degree boiling water.........
 
#25 ·
However, at normal temps the upper radiator hose should be hard. Depending on actual coolant/ambient temp that hose may be warm, quite warm, or just plain HOT !!! Go ahead - stick your fingers into a pan of 212 degree boiling water.........
It’s funny you mention that, my hose is always “Plain HOT” from the stand point I can’t touch it for more than a few seconds at a time. I did just go out while the car is warm and I have a little bit of deflection in the hose upon squeezing but it is not “Rock Hard”
 
#26 ·
I’ll be honest with you, this is my first experience with this shop. The service advisor had a family emergency so he wasn’t there when I came to pick the car up. The mechanic wasn’t there that actually looked at the car the day before so I couldn’t ask them what all they did. They also didn’t have any “ticket” created in the system for my vehicle so I was tossed the keys and told I could go we and we could settle up later. (Yes because I’m going to come back here and pay you all after you let me go, it’s been 2 days now and I haven’t heard from them)

If I had to guess they just let the car idle for a while and checked the temperature of the engine etc. and decided everything was good. I checked the mileage and they put about 2 miles on the car and the idle time for the car was about 45 minutes according to the computer.

So now I’m debating on taking it to a shop that is about an hour and half away. I think this shop would do a better job of looking at it but I’m also wondering if I should wait until the problem presents its self more easily.
 
#24 ·
"How the car went from 185 to 220 degrees"
Keep in mind the gauges are only 'so' accurate.
Even an infrared non-contact right there on the spot has a variance. Flukes are +/-1% typ.
3-5% is common in all kinds of stuff, even highend industrial stuff.
So you could have been closer to boiling than you could have known or measured.
Once it begins to boil its unstable, even a little pressure release is a big deal.

Spent 25yrs in industrial gas/cryogenics/distillation/petrochem. Fun stuff when going well.
 
#27 ·
"How the car went from 185 to 220 degrees"
Keep in mind the gauges are only 'so' accurate.
On Submariner’s suggestion about 2 years ago I bought a Scan Gauge 2 and have that running at all times in the car, (I have it mounted up in the top corner of the drivers side windshield) My car is the DHS model which does have the analog temperature gauge and the photo he has of temperature in relation to needle placement I have to say is dead accurate to what the Scan Gauge is reading back to me.

Granted even when going up the grade and the car was reading 230, when I pulled over and checked the coolant tank nothing was “boiling”. The fans were on HIGH though so I know they are working as designed. With your help I now understand pressure keeps things in check.

With your back ground no wonder you know so much about temperature and boiling points.
 
#28 ·
Ok so I thought I would update my thread on this now that it's been a few months and 8,000 miles. I've driven it stop and go traffic and around down and the temp still never went as high as when I was climbing the mountain grade. The car hasn't run hot since although I haven't taken it on any long trips out of town since this time and the car is now at 158,000.

About October-November I started to feel the transmission started to slip badly when the temperature was in the 20's when starting initially. I then realized I've been loosing a large amount of transmission fluid in when backing in out of driveway in the morning. The fluid dump wouldn't happen however until I made it to my street, you can see where I would back out and turn the wheel put the car in drive and then pull away. I hadn't realized this was coming from car as there was not trail until i made it to the street. Nothing would leak out of the car over night and it wouldn't spot the drive way when parked. I took it too a shop and they looked at it and read all the codes and asked me to come pick it back up because they didn't want to touch it as they deemed it a total loss since it needs to have the transmission rebuilt/replaced. When pulling the codes I they got
"TCC is stuck off (P0741) it prevents trans/torque converter lockup, thus allowing a very slight (300 RPM or so) slippage, resulting in about a 2 MPG difference which lines up with the mileage dip I have experienced after all this happened I was getting 21 mpg around down and I went down to a steady 19 mpg over the summer. However this never set a check engine code until it visited the shop, they showed me the code on their scanner while it was plugged in and the check engine light was now on.

I have it at another shop now waiting for its turn to have the transmission looked at and decide what to do. My question is this:

Could the TCC being stuck off allow the engine to run hotter when pulling the large grade of 8% or more? However any other time the car ran fine (I don't have many mountains around me during the past 8,000 miles but I have had plenty of 100 degree days sitting in stop an go traffic. and I assume if it was the head bolts it would have happend again by now )
 
#29 ·
The TCC codes have nothing to do with the engine running warmer than usual.

P 1860 is the TCC engagement solenoid failure - electrical circuit monitor fault. A $45 solenoid buried $2500 deep in the transmission.
P 0741 is TCC stuck OFF, an engine/transmission shaft speed mismatch. Caused (most likely) by worn transmission and torque converter input shaft seals, causing a TCC engagement oil pressure leak.

A GM/Cadillac dealership gets about $4700 for those code fixes - they install a locally rebuilt transmission and torque converter.

Either WILL cause the slight mpg change. You can drive the car forever with either code but, if in an emissions area, it will fail the tests.

Maintain the cooling system and your "overheating" days will not return.

Line art Text Auto part Font Vehicle
 
#30 ·
Well the transmission shop called today, he replaced the seal around the drivers side axle for $102.82 and deemed it fixed, no code came up for the Transmission at all. I guess the first shop just really did not want to work on it at all. The transmission guy brought me into the shop to look at all the oil leaks. It's no longer seeping oil I have visible drips all over a(mostly around the oil pan) and told me "Why don't you go have that fixed because you don't have any transmission issues" I'm glad it wasn't expensive considering the first guy said junk it and move on.
 
#31 ·
Well I thought I would update this now that it's been to another shop. They checked it over and it failed the block test the fluid when green, they did test it 3 times under load and they said its just a matter of time before things get worse. I really wish I could get it fixed but I'm having a hard time finding a shop willing to even take on the work. I'm kind of at a loss what to do now. I guess I don't need to worry about the transmission and oil leaks anymore, it breaks my heart but I guess its telling me time to let it go.
 
#32 ·
Bad news. If the rest of the car is in good to excellent condition you could bite the bullet and ship it to Joe Blau at Midwest Cadillac Repair in Palatine, IL (just NW of Chicago). They do perfect, excellent, extremely fair priced Northstar work - and everything you describe can be repaired permanently.

Or, ask a local shop if they would swap in a Jasper reman long block of the same VIN series (Y) as yours.

Either way, you're looking at about $4,000 or so - expensive, but what would you buy for that price that equals or exceeds the 2003 Deville ?
 
#33 · (Edited)
Sub,

As always thank you for your advice and wisdom.

I talked with the Cadillac mechanic who was trained on the Northstar back in the 90's (so hopefully he knows what he's talking about) he told me the fact I've driven it 8,000 more miles since the original incident that I could roll the dice and keep driving it and just pray a lot. His exact words were "You must be doing something right, I just wish I knew what it was you were doing to keep it running" (Well that makes 2 of us)

I figured between shipping the car out to Joe I'm looking at about a $4500-$5000 investment. I feel the car is worth that to me, however I'm on the Dave Ramsey budget at the moment and me and him fight a lot on how much money I should spend on my car.

I found and purchased a 2005 Buick Lesabre for much cheaper that doing the motor work at this time, my plan is to save up for the engine work on the Cadillac while I use the Buick for my commute. It should make Dave happy that I don't have a car payment at least.
577182
 
#34 ·
Thanks for the update - and thanks for trying to keep a good car on the road.

About 5 years ago Karen and I came within a gnat's whisker of moving over near you - just northwest in Sherrills Ford. 5 acres with a 4 bedroom brick rambler, 3 car garage. But the deal fell through.
 
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