180 degree performance thermostat
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V6: 3.0, 3.2 LA3, 3.6 LY7, 3.6 DI LLT Discussion, 180 degree performance thermostat in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; A cooler engine produces more horsepower. The manufacturer uses a 195 degree thermostat to meet emissions. I'm having trouble finding ...
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    180 degree performance thermostat

    A cooler engine produces more horsepower. The manufacturer uses a 195 degree thermostat to meet emissions. I'm having trouble finding a 180 degree thermostat for the CTS 3.6 Can anybody help me?

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    A cooler engine (below designed operating tempurature) also increases wear exponentially, and in the case of many GM products lowers chasis dyno #'s, just FYI.

    -Ben

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    Quote Originally Posted by benjet
    A cooler engine (below designed operating tempurature) also increases wear exponentially, and in the case of many GM products lowers chasis dyno #'s, just FYI.

    -Ben
    Ben
    Contrary to what I know. Maybe you can share your info source?

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertCTS
    A cooler engine produces more horsepower. The manufacturer uses a 195 degree thermostat to meet emissions. I'm having trouble finding a 180 degree thermostat for the CTS 3.6 Can anybody help me?
    Typically, therms also require a reprogrammed ecm to work effectively.
    2004 Cadillac CTS (**SOLD** ): http://www.ctsowners.com
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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertCTS
    A cooler engine produces more horsepower. The manufacturer uses a 195 degree thermostat to meet emissions. I'm having trouble finding a 180 degree thermostat for the CTS 3.6 Can anybody help me?
    Cooler intake air is what makes power due to an increased density, not a cooler engine block. An engine actually makes more power and becomes more efficient the hotter it becomes. The trick is to get the engine really hot, but not to the point of melt down of the components.

    Hence manufacturers utilize pressurized coolant systems which raise the boiling point of water, allowing increased engine operating temperatures before the coolant changes state from a liquid to a gas. "Simple" thermodynamics.

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    A complicating factor is that as an aluminum cylinder block expands, the deck height becomes higher and the compression ratio lowers. The old ZL-1 427 Chevy aluminum big block engine actually developed lower horsepower than the L-88 427 cast iron engine when both engines were hot. The only important difference between them was the aluminum block. Esoteric to be sure.

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthV
    Cooler intake air is what makes power due to an increased density, not a cooler engine block. An engine actually makes more power and becomes more efficient the hotter it becomes. The trick is to get the engine really hot, but not to the point of melt down of the components.

    Hence manufacturers utilize pressurized coolant systems which raise the boiling point of water, allowing increased engine operating temperatures before the coolant changes state from a liquid to a gas. "Simple" thermodynamics.
    Curious. Why is there such a market for these therms? I can't find the one for the CTS but many for others like the small block Chevy. They do promise increased HP.
    Check out this link and tell me what you think?

    http://www.martelbrothers.com/custom...cat=589&page=1

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    A lower temp thermostat works by making the ECM provide a richer fuel/air mixture. Why does this make more power? Because an engine's power is limited by the amount of oxygen it can combust, not fuel (it's easy to add more fuel but the amount of oxygen in the cylinder is fixed). If you had a mixture that on average was stoichiometric, there would still be pockets that were a bit rich and pockets that were a bit too lean to burn. By creating a richer overall mixture, you ensure that those slightly lean pockets have enough fuel to burn, and therefore you are combusting all of the oxygen possible and making max power.

    This was more of an issue on older cars with poorer combustion control. On modern engines there's not nearly as much to be gained by a cooler thermostat.

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    There's a market for them because people, like yourself, believe it is better. People will sell you anything to make a buck.

    One can't argue with Newton's Second Law of Thermodynamics. The higher the difference between the intake air and engine temperature, the more power and efficiency. It's all in here --> Thermodynamics of a Gasoline Engine

    Because of the physical laws of the universe we live in, nothing is free, there is always a trade-off. Just like K&N filters - sure they flow more air, the trade off? They don't filter dirt out of the air stream as well as a paper filter.

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    Thank ya StealthV for backing me up between visits to my screen
    -Ben

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthV
    There's a market for them because people, like yourself, believe it is better. People will sell you anything to make a buck.

    One can't argue with Newton's Second Law of Thermodynamics. The higher the difference between the intake air and engine temperature, the more power and efficiency. It's all in here --> Thermodynamics of a Gasoline Engine

    Because of the physical laws of the universe we live in, nothing is free, there is always a trade-off. Just like K&N filters - sure they flow more air, the trade off? They don't filter dirt out of the air stream as well as a paper filter.
    Stealth:
    Forum etiquette- "people like yourself" will buy things that don't work. It finds it's roots from P.T. Barum, "A fool is born every minute." I'm not a fool.

    Stealth, I hear what you're saying and in part it make sense to me. But figure this out. I'm a drag racer from the sixties. I raced Corvettes. We took what GM gave us; big powerful motors, fresh pressurized air from the base of the windshield and waste gates on the side fenders to extract heat.

    At the drag strip we saw engine heat as the enemy. We did everything we could to keep the engine compartment cool. We drove up to the staging area with our hoods popped to let the heat escape. Between runs we opened up the engine bay, packed the intake manifold, carb fuel bowls and gas lines with ice bags. We wrapped our headers with insulating tape and a common thing to do was to install low temp thermos. All of this was to reduce engine heat and cool the fuel. All I gotta say is it worked. We were FAST!

    Have you looked at the CTS-VR's closely? Look at the hood. Two HUGE holes! The intake is the reverse of a scoop. That serves two purposes. Mainly it quickly removes heat and adds cool air.

    This a forum of dialog. A place to share ideas. It can be a pleasant place.

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    You guys need to re-read Miscreant's post.

    The ECM may at first dump in more gas, but it will soon start to lean things out again. It will re-learn the proper (or programmed, speaking more accurately) A/F ratio based on all the sensor readings.

    That's the 30,000 foot explanation, I'm sure someone here can get into the nuts and bolts of O2 sensors working with Engine temp, timing, etc. that makes this happen.

    Brian

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    Quote Originally Posted by briandors
    You guys need to re-read Miscreant's post.

    The ECM may at first dump in more gas, but it will soon start to lean things out again. It will re-learn the proper (or programmed, speaking more accurately) A/F ratio based on all the sensor readings.

    That's the 30,000 foot explanation, I'm sure someone here can get into the nuts and bolts of O2 sensors working with Engine temp, timing, etc. that makes this happen.

    Brian
    I read Miscreant's post. He's a cool guy and well informed. I just wanted to discuss the applications that could make the CTS faster. But I think you may be right. GM has come a long way to discourage us hot rodders with the ECM.

    A website called dyno-proven.com has been working on ways to change and improve the CTS ECM. They have found it to huge challenge. And these guys are very good at what they do!! Thanks for the input Brian.

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    A quick reply to ROBERTCTS....Nice to meet a fellow racer from the '60's. Been there, done that (as our kids say!), worked on original '67 dual 4bbl Z28's, 396 Chevelles (up to 375 hp), Boss 302 Mustangs, '68 & '69 Hemi Roadrunners, bunches of 442's and GTO's. Todays engines...totally different, infinitely better in every respect. More hp/cube, more efficient, just plain better with todays technology. Cool was important in the '60's with simple modified stock type engines. Those louvers on the CTS V are to equalize air pressure from under the hood to prevent the hood from blowing open at high speeds...believe it or not! The design for them has no consideration at all to let the engine run cooler. Unless a modern day car is modified significantly (a.k.a. won't pass state inspections), running the standard, stock thermostat will generate maximum hp. Been tested many times. Owners in the very southern states and places like Arizona like the low temp 'stats because it gives them more breathing room when your driving in traffic, a/c on and the outside air temp is 110-115. Otherwise, waste of money and probably will reduce performance a wee bit. Don't you love today's technology!!!

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    Re: 180 degree performance thermostat

    Quote Originally Posted by tzoid
    A quick reply to ROBERTCTS....Nice to meet a fellow racer from the '60's. Been there, done that (as our kids say!), worked on original '67 dual 4bbl Z28's, 396 Chevelles (up to 375 hp), Boss 302 Mustangs, '68 & '69 Hemi Roadrunners, bunches of 442's and GTO's. Todays engines...totally different, infinitely better in every respect. More hp/cube, more efficient, just plain better with todays technology. Cool was important in the '60's with simple modified stock type engines. Those louvers on the CTS V are to equalize air pressure from under the hood to prevent the hood from blowing open at high speeds...believe it or not! The design for them has no consideration at all to let the engine run cooler. Unless a modern day car is modified significantly (a.k.a. won't pass state inspections), running the standard, stock thermostat will generate maximum hp. Been tested many times. Owners in the very southern states and places like Arizona like the low temp 'stats because it gives them more breathing room when your driving in traffic, a/c on and the outside air temp is 110-115. Otherwise, waste of money and probably will reduce performance a wee bit. Don't you love today's technology!!!
    Tzoid,
    Yep, It's difficult to build a fast car today! Any changes and the ECM gets confused and the engine doesn't run well. Shade tree mechanics are now dinosaurs.
    About the CTS-VR hood. I don't understand your comment. Wouldn't that apply to all the race cars; the Audis, BMW etc? No massive hood openings on those cars.

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