Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tips?
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RWD 19xx-1984 DeVille and Fleetwood,
1985-1996 Fleetwood and Brougham Forum Discussion, Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tips? in Past Cadillac Vehicle Discussion; I’m thinking of fixing up the A/C in the 77 CDV and have some plans. Of course I’ll be running ...
  1. #1
    lacville78 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tips?

    I’m thinking of fixing up the A/C in the 77 CDV and have some plans.

    Of course I’ll be running a vacuum, flushing the system, new oil PAG (Double End Capped), new seals, new accumulator drier, maybe install an inline filter.
    Now for refrigerant. My brother put this stuff called ES-12a in his Caprice. It blows ICE! So, I think I’ll go with that, since R-12 is through the roof, and I’ve yet to see a 134a conversion cool as well as stock.

    Also some other tricks I’m thinking of doing is installing a Variable Expansion Orifice and an Auxiliary Electric Fan in front of the condenser, the previous owner also deleted the fan clutch in favor of direct drive which helps and I would have done the same I also plan on installing some insulation on the Accumulator Drier and lines, and tinting the windows.

    I am on the lookout for a Parallel Flow condenser, but from what I understand it is hard to find a true one for our cars. Sure they brand them as PF, but they usually aren’t true ones.
    I would also bypass the heater core, but it looks like Cadillac has already thought of that with their vacuum valve. Ah, such well engineered cars.

    I’m thinking this set up + the old school GM A4 compressor should be one of the best set ups on the road.
    After all, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Mercedes, and Jaguar couldn’t come up with anything better, so they used it too.

    Do any of you guys have any other tips and tricks for A/C systems in these cars?

    Thanks
    Tom.

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  3. #2
    Fleetwood472 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    Hey Tom,

    I'm in the process of getting parts together for my 78 fleetwood to do an AC build. Regarding the condenser. If you use the R12 additive I don't think there would be any need for a booster fan because the condensers on these cars are huge. Also I think the only reason that guys use a variable orifice valve is when they do R134 retrofits to maintain the proper pressure.

    Parallel flow condensers are only for R134A and will not work with R12. If you do decide to go with R134A then it would be great to get a parallel flow condenser. The reason a lot of people end up saying R134A doesn't blow as cold is because when they do a retrofit they end up reusing a stock tube and fin condenser. I've talked to some AC shops about this and they say if you go with R134A and your condenser is in good shape to just reuse it because cadillac over engineered these systems and the stock condenser is supposed to keep it pretty cool. Here's a link to a parallel flow condenser that I found at autozone and just picked up:

    http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...er=114431_0_0_

    It bolts up directly to any 77-79 cadillac deville/fleetwood.


    When you say A4 compressor are you talking about the R4 or A6? If you're talking abou the R4 compressor I wouldn't recommend it. I would recommend the V5 or V7 compressor with a v-belt pulley. It's a pretty popular retrofit because both of these compressors are variable and self regulated so you need no extra equipment to control them. They maintain the pressure needed so when the pressure is getting to high it will de-stroke to lower the pressure instead of cycling on and off like the older R4 and A6 compressors. Here's a link to a video of a V5 compressor being used in an old nova:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5hkkgqcE3Y

    They come in different mounting configurations so if you go with a V7 look it up for a 2000 Chevy S-10 application. It will have mounting ear locations similar to the A6 but you will have to modify your brackets a little to get the compressor to fit. You will also need to swap over a v-belt pulley from a v5 compressor to replace the serpentine pulley on it.

  4. #3
    The Ape Man's Avatar
    The Ape Man is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    The radiator fan may be factory. My '77 CDV came with a factory flex fan.

    Those later compressors look pretty nice.

    The old radial compressors used to fail after a couple years on Chevy, Pontiac and maybe Buick. I'm convinced they were manufactured to better tolerances for longer life on some cars. The ones used on Mercedes 126 chassis seemed to last a long time.

  5. #4
    Fleetwood472 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    Ya good point it's probably a factory flex fan. I had one originally in my fleetwood and it worked great. I just recently swapped it out for a clutch fan to try to save on gas mileage even though i'm sure it wont make much of a difference haha.

  6. #5
    The Ape Man's Avatar
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    The flex fans always made the engine sound completely different. Reminded me of Fords which were big with flex fans. Also masked a lot of the noisy Cadillac front main bearing rap.

    My favorite fan was a RWD HT-4100 type. Those puppies move a lot of air. Still using one.

  7. #6
    Fleetwood472 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    Does the whole HT4100 fan shroud and fan fit on a 77-79 rwd? That would be an interesting swap to try. I might have to give it a shot if it would fit.

  8. #7
    The Ape Man's Avatar
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    I don't remember if the shroud fits but the HT-4100 fan and radiator sure will. U will need studs/nuts to retrofit onto a flex fan car.

  9. #8
    Fleetwood472 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    That's awesome. I was just at the yard the other day and saw an 85 cadillac with an HT4100. I was checking out how the fan had some crazy fins on it that looked like they would definitely move more air. I also noticed it had some lines running to the front face of the radiator for the transmission and 2 larger lines running to the back of the motor. Did this car have an extra cooler in the radiator? If you could pop up some pictures of your setup that would be awesome. I wonder if that setup would not only keep the motor cooler but help keep the condenser cooler too.

  10. #9
    The Ape Man's Avatar
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    You really cannot even see the fan except it has an extra blade IIRC. The radiator has an oil cooler in addition to the usual stuff.

  11. #10
    lacville78 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleetwood472 View Post
    Hey Tom,

    I'm in the process of getting parts together for my 78 fleetwood to do an AC build. Regarding the condenser. If you use the R12 additive I don't think there would be any need for a booster fan because the condensers on these cars are huge. Also I think the only reason that guys use a variable orifice valve is when they do R134 retrofits to maintain the proper pressure.

    Parallel flow condensers are only for R134A and will not work with R12. If you do decide to go with R134A then it would be great to get a parallel flow condenser. The reason a lot of people end up saying R134A doesn't blow as cold is because when they do a retrofit they end up reusing a stock tube and fin condenser. I've talked to some AC shops about this and they say if you go with R134A and your condenser is in good shape to just reuse it because cadillac over engineered these systems and the stock condenser is supposed to keep it pretty cool. Here's a link to a parallel flow condenser that I found at autozone and just picked up:

    http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...er=114431_0_0_



    It bolts up directly to any 77-79 cadillac deville/fleetwood.


    When you say A4 compressor are you talking about the R4 or A6? If you're talking abou the R4 compressor I wouldn't recommend it. I would recommend the V5 or V7 compressor with a v-belt pulley. It's a pretty popular retrofit because both of these compressors are variable and self regulated so you need no extra equipment to control them. They maintain the pressure needed so when the pressure is getting to high it will de-stroke to lower the pressure instead of cycling on and off like the older R4 and A6 compressors. Here's a link to a video of a V5 compressor being used in an old nova:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5hkkgqcE3Y

    They come in different mounting configurations so if you go with a V7 look it up for a 2000 Chevy S-10 application. It will have mounting ear locations similar to the A6 but you will have to modify your brackets a little to get the compressor to fit. You will also need to swap over a v-belt pulley from a v5 compressor to replace the serpentine pulley on it.
    A6, Doh!

    Man, those compressors look sweet!

    That would be the way to go.

  12. #11
    cadchris's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    Surprised none of you guys warned him about the Freon (ES-12a)!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's propane/butane and is flammable and explosive under certain conditions, but works better than R12 as an excellent refrigerant. The concern is from a front end collision. Do a lot of research before using that refrigerant. I debated using this for a businesses's HVAC but R22 is easy enough to buy "sideways" on ebay as is R12. And in case of future leaks that could not be sealed by a sealer I recommend below, I didn't want Propane released inside this friends business.


    12a info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HC-12a

    But, these guys don't seem to mind and know better than me.....Propane as a refrigerant is debatable. Maybe just carry a fire extinguisher :

    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....-Systems/page6

    You could always buy one of these Automatic Halon Extinguishers. I think Summit Sells them too:
    http://www.gmccoop.com/fire_ext_.htm

    Even on Ebay for $170: "Halon SS-30 Fire Fight"


    Over the years, I have collected a lot of info about the subject of enhancing a/c performance....so here it is:


    Synthetic Refrigerant Additive ICE 32:

    One item you may want to consider and is now widely private labeled is a synthetic additive. Many may have seen the recent TV adds for "AC Pro" sold by Advance and Auto Zone......well, there is a long history about how that very special oil additive was developed about 15 yrs ago that was used in the commercial HVAC market...


    The original refrigerant additive was developed by Shrieve Chemical for the HVAC industry marketed by NUCALGON under the label Zerol Ice (now AC Renew) and then marketed the additive for commercial trucks and it eventually entered the automotive market being repackaged as ICE32 or ICE 32 for 4 Seasons in a small bottle of additive w/o refrigerant and others like Interdynamics who make it with refrigerant ect... It's everywhere now and on Amazon:

    During testing, it was said not only to protect the compressor, but to add in fuel economy when the compressor was engaged. They used to call it "Slick 50" for your A/C.
    http://www.shrieve.com/us-scp/produc.../zerol-ice-am/

    http://www.shrieve.com/us-scp/produc...nce-enhancers/

    http://www.shrieve.com/us-scp/applic...stems--ice-32/

    http://idqusa.com/?s=ice+32

    Tech Info on how it works:
    http://acperform.com/how-ac-perform-works.htm

    http://www.acrenew.com/auto.htm

    ICE 32 Automotive Site with lots of data:
    http://www.ice32.com/vehicle.htm

    http://www.ice32.com/index.htm



    Nucalgon Easy Seal:

    By the way, Nucalgon came out with a very good system sealer that is a much different and safer chemistry than other AC Sealers known to possibly clog systems. Its called A/C EasySeal-SS for small HVAC systems or automotive systems. This stuff can be found on Ebay, Amazon, or your local HVAC parts distributor that sells Nucalgon products. I bet this stuff is made for Nucalgon by Shrieve Chemical also.

    Here's some info about it on an HVAC Forum:
    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....ak-Sealer-quot

    I've even heard that some "Honest" HVAC techs will use it as a preventative maintanance along with the Zerol Ice/AC Renew additive to make a bullet proof system.

    Easy Seal Video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON6NGAsRMXo


    BE SURE, to do a deep vacuum with a good vacuum pump and make sure the vacuum pump has had its oil changed after every use!!! The oil gets contaminated and stops the pump from pulling a deep vacuum. Use only the type and oil recommended by your vacuum pump mfg. It would also be a good idea to buy a Digital Vacuum Gauge that measures "Microns" to verify if you can get your pump down to 50 microns of vacuum which is much different than 22 Hg" on your A/C guages. If you can't get down to 50 microns, put new oil in the pump and run it with pump closed for a few hours then drain it out and flush with clean oil....you may need to do this a few times to clean the pump out and to restore the vacuum pumps ability to pull a powerful vacuum to boil out all the moisture in an A/C System.!!!!!!!

    On systems with no oil other than what is recommended to fill the compressor for start up, draw a vacuum overnight and then close off all the valves to see if it holds for a few hours but sometimes your gauges could have micro leaks in the hoses and make you believe you have a system leak. With oil in the system a few hours is o.k., because you will start to boil out the refrigerant oil from the system which is the vapor coming out the end of the vacuum pump. Just be aware of this loss of oil, but never overfill a system with oil because it's hard on the compressor and greatly reduces cooling capacity. Better to have too little oil with the use of ICE 32 than too much oil in a system....

    Also, use the green o-rings that are r12 - r134a compatible on all your connections and keep them absolutely clean using rubber gloves and clean all connections with alcohol before dipping the o-rings into clean mineral oil and slipping them on the fittings...... Assortment kits are cheep on Amazon "HNBR Air conditioning O-Ring Assortment".

    Another tip is to ALWAYS purge your lines after hooking up to a charged system which clears the hoses of air and fills them with refrigerant. Most gauges have a schrader valve to purge both the high and low sides hoses. Never install gauges or quick fill cans on a system that is running or you'll suck air that is in the hose into the system with moisture which causes acid inside the system and also looses cooling capacity. The systems dryer/accumulator only has a small amount of descant to absorb moisture but better to not introduce moisture into the system every time hoses are connected and to reverse purge the hose to blow out air in the line before charging.

    Every time the system is opened, install a new Dryer/Accumulator, and install it last when pulling the sealed caps off and quickly vacuum it down to remove moisture before the desecant bag absorbs moisture. It's a good practice, but if not, a long deep vacuum is needed on the system to completely boil out the moisture........

    A little technical, but that's how its done.



    SMART VOV (Variable Orfice Valves):

    Here is the background info on the VOV's (Variable Orifice Valves) and its history of how it was developed by it's inventor. Bascially, when buying a VOV, DO NOT buy the Heavy duty one that is made for 105+ degrees. I made a huge research project out of this 10 yrs ago when there was confusion when Nartron was marketing the VOV's for the inventor.

    This huge automotive tech company called "NARTRON" mfg. DID NOT know squat and only manufactured it for the inventor Richard Kozinsky and paid him royalties.
    http://www.aircondition.com/vov/

    I had to track down Richard to talk about what Nartron was doing and screwing up the recommended VOV's for different applications:
    http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/VOV1.htm

    These VOV's are now marketed under many names like 4 Seasons, AC Delco, Standard ect. Just be sure to buy the right one. Also, later Cadillac's around 1990 and other GM's have the Temp Cycling Switch located very close to the orifice tube and require a sleeve that goes over the VOV to keep the refrigerant spray off the AC Temp Cycling Switch.

    This sleeve is sometimes hard to find because they messed up the part number and is either Narton# 8594099 or 8594009 Not sure if 4 Seasons or Standard sells it, but it is only a piece of brass tube: (.381" i.d., .389 o.d., 1.04" long) and slips over the black end, not the filter end. The inventor Richard/Dick Kozinsky said these were not critical measurements and the sleeve can fit loosely over the end of the VOV.

    Index List: Smart VOV's ect....:
    http://www.imcool.com/articles/aircondition/

    VOV Case Study:
    http://www.imcool.com/articles/airco...acperf_vov.htm

    Just in case you wanted to see what NARTON does, here's their site:
    http://www.nartron.com/


    Refrigerant Oils:

    Always be sure to ask your Compressor Mfg. like "4 Seasons" what oil they recommend each refrigerant.

    Most common for 134a is PAG 100 or PAG 150 which is sometimes too heavy for most compressors.
    http://www.supercool.ac/products/lubricants/
    http://www.supercool.ac/products/com...t-uv-dye-8-oz/



    By the way, basically the more air you move across the condenser, = lower cooling temps. I bought a Flexalite 294 "S-Blade" design so its quiet rather than a straight bladed fan and moves a ton of air:
    http://www.flex-a-lite.com/dual-15-i...ontroller.html

    Haven't installed it yet, but looking forward to it and getting rid of the original fan shroud.....


    Yeah, I know, this was like 100 posts! I like to say everything on my mind in 1 post than 100 posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Stay Coooooooooooooooool.

    Regards,
    Chris
    turbojimmy and lacville78 like this.

  13. #12
    The Ape Man's Avatar
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    R-12 is still available on epay and other places. Take an online AC certification test and get your numb-er. The test just makes sure you have read the warning tag on your pillow. You can buy old R-12 canz found at defunct gas stations in da 'hood wid the certification number. Legit.

  14. #13
    cadchris's Avatar
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    Or, many sellers on "The Bay" just tell you to e-mail them with a letter that you are going to re-sell the R12 to a certified installer per e-bay and EPA rules.

    Unless it's a trap by the EPA!

    Its just to keep Ebay happy and the EPA off their backs as I found some sellers don't even list that disclosure.

  15. #14
    lacville78 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    Wow! awesome posts.
    There is a lot for me to read and think about now

  16. #15
    talismandave's Avatar
    talismandave is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Sharing my A/C tips, tricks,plans for the 77 CDV, anyone here have any other tip

    Thanks for the tip Ape Man. Two hours ago I couldn't even spell Section 609 MVAC technician...and now I are one!
    The Ape Man likes this.

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