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2002 STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

42K views 31 replies 10 participants last post by  Mathis Auto 
#1 · (Edited)
2002 Seville STS - When the key is turned to the start position the starter/engine won't turn over.

Dash lights go completely black when the key is turned to the Start position and relight when key is released.
This is not my car so I am unfamiliar with the dash lights going black, maybe this is normal when starting this car.

When the dash is lit up the transmission gear shift indicates correctly for each gear on the dash.

Voltage measured at the terminal post located at the rear of the engine compartment's fuse box and engine ground strap is 12v when turning the key to start.

Relay number 36 (Start 1) in the engine compartment's fuse box was tested good(coil and contacts) when removed. I cannot feel this relay pickup when key is in the Start position.

When relay 36 is removed I can jumper the appropriate terminals on the fuse block and the starter will crank (only jumpered it for 2 seconds, a couple of times). Vehicle will start and run with the key in the run/on position if cranked for a few more seconds.

The relay 36 terminal on the fuse block, closest to the fuse removal tool gives me a 1.2 ohms to ground. The terminal diagonal the relay coil ground terminal is open when the key is in the Start position.


So I need someone (Mark C.?) with the wiring schematics that can tell me where this terminal is connected to/traces back to.

There are no DTCs stored and the Service Engine light is off. The dash Security lamp only lights for a second when I first turn the key on.

I'm thinking its not the neutral switch/range switch unless there are two functions to this switch since the dash gear shift indicator is operating correctly. Where is this switch located? How many terminals are on it? How would I access it.

Thank you.
 
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#2 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

12 volts is a dead battery. It should read 12.4 to 12.6, engine OFF. Begin by checking all 4 battery cable ends for clean, tight connection. Especially the ground cable to the floor pan under the rear seat. The starter positive cable goes under the intake manifold just in front (radiator side) of the P/S pump - you might carefully pull on that while someone tries to crank the engine (starter motor connection loose ?) - hope that it is not the positive cable stud terminal on the starter motor - the intake manifold has to come off to tighten that.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

Since since this is lead acid battery, a battery having only 12v is OK, maybe not fully charged, but neverthe less sufficient to start the vehicle, and its not dead. A dead battery would read a multiple of 2.0v per cell less than 12v. (ie 10v = one dead cell, 8 v. = 2 dead cells, and so on). The point being that battery/ground strap corrosion is not the issue for this vehicle.

You didn't read through all of my symptoms/tests. "I am able to crank the engine over if I jumper relay 36."
 
#6 · (Edited)
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

Since since this is lead acid battery, a battery having only 12v is OK, maybe not fully charged, but neverthe less sufficient to start the vehicle, and its not dead. A dead battery would read a multiple of 2.0v per cell less than 12v. (ie 10v = one dead cell, 8 v. = 2 dead cells, and so on). The point being that battery/ground strap corrosion is not the issue for this vehicle.
Wrong. ^^^

As a former diesel submarine main power electrician I have a slight bit of experience in the care, feeding, and testing of lead-acid batteries. Little ones and big ones.

On our cars, the under-seat battery ground cable connections are always suspect, and you and I would not be the first ones in this Forum to find that out.

Schematics - www.alldatadiy.com

Where's your neutral safety switch ?? I do not believe that it is inside the transmission unless it's integral with the IMS, but labor time on the neutral switch is only 0.7 hours...........Look at START 1 relay in the underhood fuse box.
 
#4 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

For 2002 (at least), there's no direct connection between the key and the starter - the PCM sits in the middle. So, for some reason, the PCM is deciding to ignore the start signal from the key cylinder. The PCM ground out the START 1 relay, which triggers the starter solenoid which connects the motor across the battery. If you were really careful you could pull out START 1 and jump the normally open contact to the common contact.... not really the best idea.

Lights off in start sounds right. However the wire from the cylinder containing the start signal splits at the cylinder into two wires and goes to the DIM and the PCM. So maybe the DIM is getting the signal but the PCM isn't...

Edit: oops, you already jumpered the relay. Wire tracing time! The wire is yellow, on PCM connector C1 pin 6.
 
#5 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

Just talked to the dealer, the neutral safety switch is inside the tranny, bummer, since I just changed the fluid a few months back. But I really need schematics before I open the tranny and the location of connectors.
 
#7 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

My current battery is end of life. Terminal voltage, resting, is about 12.1-12.0 volts (verified externally). It needs to be replaced, soon, however it still works to crank down to 10 degrees F cold soak.... probably it won't be able to do that next winter. Running voltage is 14.7v (very cold soak) to 14.2 (warm), so the alternator is fine. Dead cell is not the same as end of life, though...

What really matters is battery voltage under crank. Get someone to crank while you put a meter on the remote battery terminals. If it doesn't drop at all -> starter isn't even trying. Sagging to less than 9.6 volts means battery end of life, extreme cold, not fully charged, shorted starter, ...
 
#8 · (Edited)
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

Hi Naif,

I got the partial schematic from someone, my PCM fuse is good I am suppying start relay with 12v. on the other relay terminal there is 1.2v, so that is telling me the yellow wire is not open going to the PCM which the schematic says pin 44 on the PCM connector C1. Not pin 6 on C1 which is Crank Voltage.

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Submariner,
You didn't read my post carefully. I AM ABLE TO START THE VEHICLE when I jumper relay 36 (Start 1). I have also installed 400 amp single cell batteries just like on your sub, only in telephone switchrooms, I too know when a battery is dead or not. There is no drop in voltage when I attemp to start the vehicle with Relay 36 in place. I do not have a significant grounding issue concerning the battery, it maybe slightly corroded but that is not the issue here. My battery was simply not charged and there was a load on it, hence the 12v, point is that the voltage didn't drop significantly while attempt to crank. So what I stated is in fact true about battery voltage and approximately 2v per cell. I could be losing .6 volts in the wiring from the back seat to the engine cmpartment. Its not critical, whether I have 12v or 12.6v during crank, the battery is not dead, and the cabling is supplying sufficient amps to start the vehicle. I will clean up the corrosion when I pull the back seat if there is any.

I don't subscribe to AllData, people have told me its full of errors.


Well I guess I will have to run over to the dealer to verify where the Neutral switch is located. With .7 hours repair time it can't be inside the tranny. But that is what the parts guy told me.

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What I need is a flow chart to tell me why the PCM/ECM is not grounding Start 1 (relay 36).
What pins of the PCM is the Neutral Safety switch connected to?
 
#11 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

I think Theftlock disables injectors as well so he wouldn't be able to override by jumpering the start relay if theftlock was the problem...

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Hi Naif,

I got the partial schematic from someone, my PCM fuse is good I am suppying start relay with 12v. on the other relay terminal there is 1.2v, so that is telling me the yellow wire is not open going to the PCM which the schematic says pin 44 on the PCM connector C1. Not pin 6 on C1 which is Crank Voltage
Crank voltage = sense from the key cylinder. I think it may not be getting to the PCM (the PCM has to command the start relay closed, which you're working around by jumping the relay.)
 
#9 · (Edited)
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

I called another dealer parts guy, Neutral Saftey switch is in the tranny he says. Are you sure that picture is an 4T80E, kinda looks different from what I remember. If I could see a bottom view I would know.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

I called another dealer parts guy, Neutral Saftey switch is in the tranny he says. Are you sure that picture is an 4T80E, kinda looks different from what I remember. If I could see a bottom view I would know.
Yep - that's out of the 2002 Seville GM service manual.

Your "battery dead" one cell at a time analogy is untrue - cells make up a "battery" and the whole assembly loses voltage uniformly unless one cell shorts internally and "dies", then the battery would show significant decreasing voltage steps. When the battery reaches 11.9 to 12 volts measured across the terminals, unloaded for a half hour, there is just not enough amperage left to provide much in the way of "power". If your battery measures higher than that, then yes, you have some other connection (amperage transfer) problem.

I wonder if something has happened to or in the TheftLock system - these cars have a start/ignition disable when certain voltages/sensors detect a possible theft attempt. Does this car have an aftermarket sound system or remote start install, or has the dash or ignition switch been removed/replaced recently ?

For 2002, here are the PCM pin diagrams...............you'll have to click the thumbnail and zoom in.
 
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#13 · (Edited)
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

Crank Request signal comes from the ignition switch thru a yellow wire to PCM connector C1 terminal 6. Should have 12V with the key in start. Wire passes thru under dash connector C200 terminal B2, and engine compartment connector C101 terminal B6.

Starter relay coil gets power from the 10A PCM IGN Fuse (fuse 19). Power flows from that fuse to terminal 86 on the relay, thru the coil wires out terminal 85 thru the under fuse block connector C3 on terminal C3 which has a yellow wire. From there it goes to PCM connector C2 terminal 44. The PCM provides a ground to pick the relay when the crank request to the PCM is satisfied.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

SubMariner,
The grounding bolt under the back seat was rusty as hell (threads), so i replaced it and used some aluminum antiseize on it. Now I have 12.44 volts in the engine compartment when the key is on. But still have the same no start condition as before. Thank you for that tip. About the battery, yes I know there are 6 cells, and yes more than one cell can go dead at a time. And I check specific gravity before and after charging if I suspect a battery is at fault. My point from the getgo was that my battery had enough voltage/amps in it to crank the starter and the dash lights (and headlights, although I didnt mention them) were nice and bright.

Tommorrow I will look at pin 6/C1 (yellow) on the ECM and see what voltage is there?

Ignition switch was never replaced, no aftermarket alarms, nor aftermarket radio.

Somehow I missed the code P0615C which appears immediately after attemping to start with relay 36(Start1) in place. But the SES light doesnt come on, this code doesn't set it, so I guess thats how I missed it.

Also in the Genisis says I get a Start signal so I bet this is telling me pin 6 goes hot.

MarkC. fuse 19 is good. I have 1.2v on pin 85, so thats telling me its connected to the PCM but tommorrow I will buzz it from the PCM 44/C2 back the Start 1 (relay36) to be sure.


What about pin 41/C1 Transmission Range Switch? what is suppose to be on it?

Does anyone have the flow chart for the start circuit?
 
#15 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

DTC P0615
Circuit Description

The PCM supplies a ground path for the starter relay when start enable has been requested. The PCM monitors this circuit for conditions that are incorrect for the commanded state. If the PCM detects an improper circuit condition, starter relay DTC P0615 will set.
Conditions for Running the DTC

System voltage is between 9 and 16 volts.
Conditions for Setting the DTC

The PCM detects an improper voltage level on the output circuit that controls the starter relay.
The condition exists for at least 2 seconds.

Action Taken When the DTC Sets

The PCM will not illuminate the Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL)
The PCM will store the conditions present when the DTC set as Fail Records data only.

Conditions for Clearing the MIL/DTC

The history DTC will clear after 40 consecutive warm-up cycles have occurred without a malfunction.
The DTC can be cleared by using the scan tool Clear DTC Information function.

Diagnostic Aids

Ignition system DTCs set with the ignition switch in the START position if the starter relay or the starter is inoperative. When the PCM enables starter operation, the PCM also initiates the diagnostic test routines for DTCs P0335, P0340, and P0385. If a condition exists which prevents the engine from cranking, the PCM will not receive signal input from the CKP and CMP sensors, and the DTCs will set.

Reviewing the Fail Records vehicle mileage since the diagnostic test last failed may assist in diagnosing the condition. The information may help determine how often the condition that set the DTC occurs.

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Did you try swapping the START 1 relay? Also check PCM IGN fuse and START circuit breaker.
 
#17 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

If you look at the circuit, the PCM IGN fuse is 19, that supplies 12v to one side of the Start relay. I do have the 12v at the relay coil, the other side of the coil goes to the PCM. I'm going to buzz that this morning to make sure its not open, but I don't think it is since I have 1.2v on it.

Yes I swapped relays in my first test, and also I tested the relay out of circuit, and it was good.

Yes I tested the Start circuit breaker before I attempted to jumper the relay, remember the vehicle runs when jumpering the relay.

That diagnostic flow/solution for P0615C that you posted is flawed since there is no mention of the Neutral Saftey switch condition and everybody knows you can't start a car in gear.

So what about pin 41/C1? Is that the Neutral Safety switch input? Can someone please trace that out? Thank you

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I have read the post and I could not find anything about checking currant draw while attempting to crank if I missed it disregard this post.Mike
Please explain in more detail. Is this an input condition to the PCM? The vehicle does start and run, if Start1 (relay 36) is jumpered.
 
#18 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

It does start so ignore my post 16.

According to a my 98 fsm I have. Wires yel/blk of the start 1 and start 2 relay go to the out put of the pk3 theft deterrent module when the pk3 module grounds the start 1 and 2 relay coils energizes and the relay contacts close. The start circuit breaker then applies battery voltage to terminal s of the starter solenoid.

The other side of start 1 and 2 are energized by the neutral safety switch with battery voltage when key is in start.
 
#19 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

One more thing (I think) the PCM controls the injectors and will turn them off if it does not get the proper signal from the pass key module. So taking a guess and noting the car does start and run when you jumper start 1 relay I would assume the PCM is OK.

I dont know what the voltage is to energize the relay coils but a guess would be 5 volts key on start.
 
#25 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

One more thing (I think) the PCM controls the injectors and will turn them off if it does not get the proper signal from the pass key module. So taking a guess and noting the car does start and run when you jumper start 1 relay I would assume the PCM is OK.

I dont know what the voltage is to energize the relay coils but a guess would be 5 volts key on start.
its 12v on the relay not 5v, one side of the relay coil is ties to the PCM IGN fuse (19) other side goes to the PCM pin 44, and this is the signal that is missing.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

Mike,
Its have a 2002 vehicle, there is no Start 2 relay, I don't think the wiring is the same as '98 wiring.

Also I have discovered the MIL lamp is not working, and that I have a TPS code P0122 low voltage along with P0615C I don't know when these popped up since the MIL was not working. I didn't put the code analyzer on it right away. I can't find what the resistance should read for a test on the TPS in any previous posts. In another post > somewhere "under 40K" but that isnt very accurate.

I was hoping someone would have a flow chart for the whole ignition circuit. Maybe it doesnt exsist in the shop manuals.
 
#21 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

ot1, Went through the GM shop manual - the ignition, power distribution, starter, injector, blah, blah circuits are on at least 8 line diagrams. A lot to scan.

There's nothing wrong with Alldata, and in this case you might want to do a subscription for this car - there's simply a slew of information, diagrams, diagnostic trees, and Service Bulletins to work with.

There's even the recall for "loss of ignition signal to PCM" which sent a LOT of 2001-2002 FWD Cadillacs back to the dealer.
 
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#23 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over






Good luck!

Maybe your IGN1 relay is marginal? Jumpering the start relay bypasses the IGN1 relay... but then again, power for injectors comes through IGN1 as well :noidea:

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Here's how theftlock works, for your car:

Document ID# 703185
2002 Cadillac Seville
Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) Description and Operation

The vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system functions are provided by the theft deterrent control module. The VTD system prevents vehicle operation if a valid (learned) transponder PASS-Key®III (PK3) ignition key is not used to start the vehicle. The PK3 key has a transponder embedded in the plastic head of the key. The exciter is an antenna which is made up of wire coils which surround the ignition lock cylinder. The powertrain control module (PCM) enables engine starting when it receives a valid (learned) password from the theft deterrent control module via the class 2 serial data circuit. The components of the VTD system are as follows:

The theft deterrent control module
The powertrain control module (PCM)
The ignition key (Transponder)
The ignition lock cylinder
The security indicator

Theft Deterrent Control Module

Vehicles with steering column mounted ignition switches have the exciter integral with the theft deterrent control module which is located within the steering column. Vehicles with instrument panel mounted ignition switches have exciter modules separate from the theft deterrent control module with the vehicle wiring harness connecting the 2. The theft deterrent control module for vehicles with instrument panel mounted ignition switches is located within the instrument panel. The theft deterrent control module can learn up to 10 keys (transponder values).

The theft deterrent control module uses the following inputs, battery voltage, ignition switched voltage and ground circuit. The theft deterrent control module uses the following outputs, password exchange with the PCM (fuel enable/disable) via class 2 serial data circuit.

When an ignition key is inserted into the ignition lock cylinder, the transponder embedded in the head of the key is energized by the exciter coils surrounding the ignition lock cylinder. The energized transponder transmits a signal that contains its value, which is received by the theft deterrent control module. The theft deterrent control module then compares this value to a value stored in memory and performs one of the following functions:

If the transponder value is correct, the theft deterrent control module sends a class 2 message containing the module's enable password to the PCM.
If the transponder value is incorrect, the theft deterrent control module sends a class 2 message containing a disable password to the PCM.
If the theft deterrent control module is unable to measure the ignition key transponder value for one second (due to a damaged or missing pellet or a damaged exciter), it sends a class 2 message containing a disable password to the PCM.

If the PCM is unable to communicate with the theft deterrent control module (loss of class 2 state of health) after the vehicle has started, the PCM will enter a fail enable state. The PCM sends a class 2 message requesting the instrument cluster to illuminate the Security Indicator. The vehicle will not stall or stop running. If the PCM is in a fail enable state when the ignition is turned to OFF, it will remain fail enabled until the next time the vehicle is started. If the PCM is fail enabled the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. The PCM will remain fail enabled until class 2 communication with the theft deterrent control module is restored.

Important

On some vehicles, if the VTD system is unable to read the ignition key transponder value after the vehicle has started, the VTD system will consider itself malfunctioning. The VTD system will enter a fail enable state and will command the security indicator to illuminate. When the VTD system is in a fail enable state the vehicle will NOT stall or stop running. If the VTD system is in a fail enable state when the ignition is switched OFF, the VTD system will remain fail enable until it is able to read a learned ignition key transponder value. When the VTD system is in a fail enable state the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. This feature is NOT available on all GM vehicle lines.

Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

The PCM verifies that the password received from the theft deterrent control module via the Class 2 serial data circuit is correct. The PCM can learn only one enable password. If the enable password is correct, the PCM enables the starting and fuel delivery systems.

The PCM disables the starting and fuel delivery systems if any of the following conditions occur:

The enable password is incorrect.
The system disable password is sent by the theft deterrent control module.
No passwords are received - there is no communication with the theft deterrent control module.

Important

On some vehicles, if the PCM is unable to communicate with the VTD system after the vehicle has started, the PCM will consider the VTD system to be malfunctioning. The PCM will enter a fail enable state and will command the security indicator to illuminate. When the PCM is in a fail enable state the vehicle will NOT stall or stop running. If the PCM is in a fail enable state when the ignition is switched OFF, the PCM will remain fail enable until communications with the VTD system has been restored. When the PCM is in a fail enable state the VTD system is NOT active and the vehicle will start. This feature is NOT available on all GM vehicle lines.

The Ignition Key (Transponder)

The ignition key for VTD equipped vehicles is a typical looking ignition key with a transponder located in the plastic end of the key. The transponder value is fixed and unable to be changed. The VTD system uses the ignition key transponder value to determine if a valid ignition key is being used to start the vehicle. There are approximately three trillion possible transponder values. There are no visible electrical contacts. The keys may be identified by the letters "PK3" stamped into the steel shank of the key. The VTD systems use the following types of ignition keys:
Master Keys

Master keys have a black plastic end for full access operation of the vehicle. Master keys may perform the following functions:

Start the vehicle.
Lock/unlock all of the door locks.
Lock/unlock all of the storage compartments.

Valet Keys

Valet keys have a gray plastic end for restricted operation of the vehicle. Valet keys may perform the following functions:

Start the vehicle.
Lock/unlock all of the door locks.

Ignition Lock Cylinder

The ignition lock cylinder performs all of the functions of a lock cylinder on a non VTD equipped vehicle. The ignition lock cylinder for vehicles with VTD may be located on the steering column or on the instrument panel. In either location the exciter coils surround the ignition lock cylinder such that they are very close to the head of the key which contains the transponder pellet.
SECURITY Indicator Operation

The theft deterrent control module can command the instrument cluster to illuminate the SECURITY indicator only when the ignition key is in the ON position. The security indicator is a malfunction indicator and does illuminate during the bulb check when the ignition is turned to ON. If the PCM loses communication with the theft deterrent control module, the instrument cluster will also detect the loss of communication and will illuminate the SECURITY indicator. The SECURITY indicator can indicate both malfunctions (Indicator on steady) and tamper (Indicator flashing - indicating unauthorized operation). Under the following conditions the SECURITY indicator may be commanded to illuminate.
SECURITY Indicator Stays Illuminated and Engine Starts

If the theft deterrent control module was unable to measure the ignition key transponder value or the PCM lost communication with the theft deterrent control module while the engine was last running, the indicator will remain illuminated during subsequent ignition cycles. This is to remind the driver that the vehicle theft deterrent system will not be functioning until the problem is corrected. The vehicle is fail enabled and will start.
SECURITY Indicator Illuminates when Engine is Running

If the theft deterrent control module is unable to measure the ignition key transponder value or the PCM loses communication with the theft deterrent control module while the engine is running, the indicator will be illuminated. If the key is turned to OFF, the vehicle will be fail enabled and will start if the condition still exists at the next attempt to start the vehicle.
SECURITY Indicator Illuminated and Engine Does Not Start

The theft deterrent control module or the PCM has detected a problem with the theft deterrent system. The theft deterrent control module is unable to measure the ignition key transponder value. The System is in Learn Mode, refer to Programming Theft Deterrent System Components .
SECURITY Indicator Flashes and Engine Does Not Start

The theft deterrent control module has measured an incorrect transponder value when the ignition key is turned to the ON position. The transponder has not been learned by the theft deterrent control module. This is considered a tamper condition by the theft deterrent control module.
Document ID# 703185
2002 Cadillac Seville

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Since you have been able to hotwire (jumper start relay) your car, fuel delivery is enabled -> not a theftlock problem.
 
#26 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

Thanks for everyone help, the site mentioned did not have sufficient wiring diagrams, I ended up ordering a service manual DVD from ebay, awaiting its arrival. Hope I don't get ripped off concerning its content.

I let u know whatever I find.
 
#27 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

Due to a crappy GM design, a mouse is able to enter the intake air duct which points to the bottom of the car and in front of the air filter. He will then be able to enter the very large openings of the PCM housing and reside in there when the weather gets sub-zero This damn mouse chewed through 11 conductors as they exited the C1 and C2 connectors and ate about about an inch or more of each conductor, so now the wires are too short to do a simple butt splice with an insulated terminal.

All GM would have had to do is install a blocking screen in the duct. Argument: well the mouse could eat any of the wiring under the hood, however having wire snack in your cozy PCM home, makes it more tastey.

I obtained a DVD, not a CD from Ebay for $15, seems pretty comprehensive so far.
 
#30 ·
Re: 2002 Seville STS, won't crank, engine does not turn over

I'm sure your situation is delt with but for other peoe with this problem it is probably a bad engine ground tto the frame. This would cause those exact symptoms. A way to check is by taking a heavy gauge wire and connecting one end to the engine and the other to the frame. This will tell you if that is the problem but you might need a heavier gauge wire to engage the starter.
 
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