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Open Letters to Cadillac Corporate Discussion, 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially in Item Specific Cadillac Discussion; Originally Posted by juiceE im 6'4" and in my fleetwood, i have about 2'-1' of head room to spare, no ...
  1. #16
    jerseyvette is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    Quote Originally Posted by juiceE
    im 6'4" and in my fleetwood, i have about 2'-1' of head room to spare, no matter how i sit
    Let's get it straight:
    1993=1996 Fleetwood: No Headroom problem but the legroom and cabin room is crammed. so so design
    1992-1997 Seville: Great Design. Excellent Leg and Headroom all around.
    1993 Deville: Great Design and great room all around.

    1998 Seville; Mechanically excellent and material build quality is GREAT. HOWEVER this was the point when cadillac started to ignore roominess. Front seats lack legroom and headroom and teh rear seats are just for show, absolutely no room. This was a design flaw.

    2000 and Newer Deville: Overall the outside looks great. From the dimensions of the car (now think about this) the car looks to have been designed in this manner: Body then cram a cockpit inside of it. Outside is awesome but inside is also crammed. Lacks rear headroom, rear legroom and front legroom (especially right below the steering wheel- a verysmall area for such a large car.

    2003-2004 CTS: A Small car. Still kicks teh tail off any BMW 3 series but still a small euro oriented car. NICE amounts of front knee room (big improvement) but back seats lack any legroom (which is OK to a degree).

    SRX: Decent looking and outside of the box but again overall way to small in leg and backseat room.

    GM EXECUTIVES: Please answer me on this. Who is the ideal passenger in size you are designing cars for? I would bet the ranch your average customer size (by design) is about 5'10". Take a lead from your German counterparts. Design cars from the PASSENGER out. Make the dash boards recessed and pushed up in under the windshield (like inside the Mercedes E 300). After the ideal cabin is designed then sculpt a low profile and wide car with all the great GM innovations standard (Stabili-track , magnetic ride etc). As I mentioned in previous posts take cars like Audi A8, Mercedes S Class and Bentley GT and model them in dimensions (exterior and interior). You could fita 7' baslketball player in a Bentley Continental GT 2 Door. Why does VW have the knowledge and market understanding that GM lacks? Is management at GM so far removed from the streets that they just don't care about cabin space? You should all read an older business book called "Bureaucrats to Barbarians" that disusses the downfall of Chrysler in thd 80s. The company almost went under because the management took an aristrocratic attitude and lost empathy for customers and workers. Either build cars that we fit in (6'4" people) or get out of the business

  2. #17
    CaddyFan2004 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyvette
    I am almost 6'4" and have longer legs. Cadillac's are designed for men around 5'10" tall which is really sad. What makes it tough is that Mercedes with Chrysler are able to design a virtually perfect car with the new 300C. Headroom, power, legroom ,rear seat space, exterior looks etc are all excellent. I just always had a hope that GM and Cadillac would one day lead the world in making products people want. It's just sad that in 2004 a little country like Germany shows them up again, again and again. Now I'm stuck looking at cars in foreign car show rooms because GM turned their back on people like me. If any Daimler Chrysler execs are reading this I want tom say a sincere "Thank You" and congratulations on the cars you are introducing. I wish GM had your management team and design staff.
    6'4" makes you 99.4 percentile for male height. While not everyone is 5'8 as you point out, everyone isn't 6'4" either.

    The median height for a US male is 5' 8.5". If cars were designed around 99.4% 6'4" males, half the male population, and probably 3/4 of the female population would feel like they were driving around in cargo vans.

    Bigger cars cost more money to build and sell, and get poorer fuel economy, which in turn probably turns off more people than designing them to fit less than .6% of the population.

    Think about it.

  3. #18
    jerseyvette is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    Quote Originally Posted by CaddyFan2004
    6'4" makes you 99.4 percentile for male height. While not everyone is 5'8 as you point out, everyone isn't 6'4" either.

    The median height for a US male is 5' 8.5". If cars were designed around 99.4% 6'4" males, half the male population, and probably 3/4 of the female population would feel like they were driving around in cargo vans.

    Bigger cars cost more money to build and sell, and get poorer fuel economy, which in turn probably turns off more people than designing them to fit less than .6% of the population.

    Think about it.
    Here is where you are WAY off:
    1) Take a car like a Ford Expedition, Cadillac Escalade or a Lincoln Navigator: Soccer Mom;s LOVE these cars because they are positioned properly in the market. they look classy and have a lot of utilitarian features. It comes down to POSITIONING not PRICE.
    2) Many Cars are VERY small but have excellent interior room. I just read an article a few months aro about a Kia having more leg room than a Cadillac, I think it was in Motor Trend or Road and Track magazine. Anyway it is a fact that small cars WITH THE PROPER ENGINEERING can be made roomy and functional.
    3) In my opinion Cars like the 2000 and newer Deville were really designed from the outside in. The cabin is extremely crammed for a car of it's size and the dash (just as in the older Fleetwoods) is protruding into space that should be open and free for passengers to move around in. Why is this??? I just have no clue why a car would be designed so crammed. Could the engineers not design the electronics small enough? Are airbags too large to fit in a properley sized dash? Who knows?! Was the idea to make the front seat room small overall to give the illusion that the back seats have more legroom and the car is more spacious than it is? If you put a proper track(in front and rear adjustments) inside a Deville for example (like the ones in a S500 Mercedes) the front seat would literally be touching the front of the rear seat when all the way back. GM figured that this would not fly at a car show so they moved the tracks up and cut out some front leg room. In the "design the outside- then the inside" philosophy the rear room of the car also suffered, again everything was crammed down in size.

    We'll unless things turn around people like me will not buy GM cars anymore. I really hope Management takes ques from their competitors..... It makes me sad to say this.

  4. #19
    jerseyvette is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    This is what I am referring to:

    GM builds smaller cars than Diamler look what happens:
    GM, Ford Post Weak Sales. Obviously I am not alone in my feelings. Go Chrysler and keep making roomy cars!!

    DaimlerChrysler Sales Gain
    A WALL STREET JOURNAL ONLINE NEWS ROUNDUP
    July 1, 2004 3:46 p.m.

    General Motors Corp. reported a 15% drop in June sales amid weaker-than-expected sales of its cars and trucks. DaimlerChrysler AG's U.S. vehicle sales rose 4.9% from a year ago, while Ford Motor Co.'s sales fell 7.7%, hurt by sluggish sales of its passenger cars.

    GM, of Detroit, said truck sales were 218,558, down 15%, and car sales were 161,709, also down 15%. Total sales through June were 2,295,621, up 1%. Truck sales through the first six months were 1,350,083, up 3% compared to year-ago levels, and car sales were 945,538, off 3%.

  5. #20
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: This is what I am referring to:

    i don't know what your issue is with gm but
    1. Not everyone wants an oversized cars.
    2. Devilles have plenty of room for me 6'2"
    3. Size of the car didn't single handedly determine the sales result of the car manufacturer.

  6. #21
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    airbalancer is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    What we have here is a differnce of opinion! Boy I am smart today.
    If find the 99 STS short in leg room.Head room is OK. Back seat room, who caresthe grandkids are small.
    I am 6' 1", 240(down 30 seen Easter ) I have seat in a CTS and find it feels small to me, yet a friend rent on to go South Florida fro Toronto and he found it to be great.and he is about 50 lbs heavey then me.
    So I guess if you can the seating just right, most cars should work.

  7. #22
    jerseyvette is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Truth Hurts

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil_concours
    i don't know what your issue is with gm but
    1. Not everyone wants an oversized cars.
    2. Devilles have plenty of room for me 6'2"
    3. Size of the car didn't single handedly determine the sales result of the car manufacturer.
    When you start selling cars that are sub-par to what the competition is making in overall usefullness and value sales slump and people walk away. IF you fit in a Deville that in great and god bless you!

    I still don't fit in a Deville (2000 or newer), SRX, Rear of a CTS or a 1998 and newer Seville comfortably. But sit me an almost Daimler Chrysler Car and I fit. Why is this? Just more aware engineers that actually give a crap about their customers.

    The truth hurts (GM and Us Customers).

  8. #23
    Smokey's Avatar
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    I guess my 2000 Deville is an oddball or custom built, because it is roomier than the 300C I drove last week. Now mind you, I am only 5'11" / 260lbs. Bottom line, drive what feels good to you and you can afford. For me, it's my 2000 Deville. As for the numbers, I posted them on another area of these forums .. the Deville beats the 300C on everyone interior number as far as room.

  9. #24
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    6'4" in an SRX and love it. Sure could use more room in the back though.....

  10. #25
    Marc Kessler is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    I am 6'6" and fairly heavy. Right now I drive a 2000 Escalade. I have all the front legroom and head room I need . When I went to shop for a 2004 Escalade I couldn't get into it properly. There is no legroom and it takes major contortion for me to get my head past the door area. There is some failure here for a company to make a vehicle so much smaller than the previous model. This is the same for all of GM's trucks. Too bad. I checked out the new Ford 150 and it had plenty of legroom. I don't want a Ford Product but I may be forced into it.

    Maybe the future redesign for the Escalade could restore the loss but I'm not holding my breath.

  11. #26
    jerseyvette is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Kessler
    I am 6'6" and fairly heavy. Right now I drive a 2000 Escalade. I have all the front legroom and head room I need . When I went to shop for a 2004 Escalade I couldn't get into it properly. There is no legroom and it takes major contortion for me to get my head past the door area. There is some failure here for a company to make a vehicle so much smaller than the previous model. This is the same for all of GM's trucks. Too bad. I checked out the new Ford 150 and it had plenty of legroom. I don't want a Ford Product but I may be forced into it.

    Maybe the future redesign for the Escalade could restore the loss but I'm not holding my breath.
    Mark, We share the same feelings in general about leg room in cadillac's as of late(except for the CTS front seat area). I think that the strategy for cadillac is to make a car that smaller global people will like and say "screw you" to people like us (who happen to be a bit taller or bigger than average). I call it being "designed out" of a car. I think your averag sized person would fit great in a cadillac (like a man 5' 8").

  12. #27
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    [QUOTE=jerseyvette]

    SRX: Decent looking and outside of the box but again overall way to small in leg and backseat room.

    The SRX has plenty of leg room 41 + inches front and back. The rear legroom is 6 inches bigger in the SRX (Largest of anything in it's class) than in the BMW. I'm 6' - 2" and fit fine in the SRX.

    I must say I have a Passat and the front seat is very roomy but the rear seat leg room is very cramped, also in the 3 and 5 series BMW's. Even the front seat is cramped in the BMX's.

    You know what they say about opinions...................

  13. #28
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    Quote Originally Posted by kippjones
    6'4" in an SRX and love it. Sure could use more room in the back though.....
    6'-2" and fit just fine. Great car.

  14. #29
    Johnz's Avatar
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    Re: Truth Hurts

    Quote Originally Posted by jerseyvette

    I still don't fit in a Deville (2000 or newer), SRX, Rear of a CTS or a 1998 and newer Seville comfortably. But sit me an almost Daimler Chrysler Car and I fit. Why is this? Just more aware engineers that actually give a crap about their customers.

    The truth hurts (GM and Us Customers).
    The SRX has the biggest front and rear legroom of any competitors in it's class. BMW, Lexus, Volvo, you name it.

  15. #30
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    lacmang is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 5 Caddy's now and losing my business potentially

    Devilles have plenty of room for tall people. I don't know where the one guy got the idea that 93-96 fleetwoods have crammed space? thats ridiculous. It has more room than any other car made in the last 20 years. I have a friend who is 6'5 and can stretch his legs out in the back.

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