97 Etc N* Head Gasket Project - Page 6

**Ranger** · #76 (**permalink**) 01-28-08, 09:40 PM

Geez, as if you do not have enough problems. Murphy's law.

AlBundy · #77 (**permalink**) 01-28-08, 10:43 PM

I don't have much to add besides great documentation as this thread will help many(not me I hope/pray).

97Concours1 · #78 (**permalink**) 01-29-08, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tateos

I have good news and bad news. The good news is the Norm's inserts are plenty stong. The bad news:

Over the weekend, I was torquing down the left bank cylinder head, and I got to the last 60 degrees and when I got to bolt 9, it suddenly started to get EASIER to turn. This was the first hole I had drilled and tapped, and when the insert was installed all the way to the bottom, it was a little deeper than it should have been. I installed the insert to the proper depth, but I thought maybe the loctite had let go when I was tightening the bolt and the insert was turning. I checked the torque on the rest of the bolts and they were around 80 ft pounds, so I decided to try turning bolt 9 until I reached 80 ft pounds, but the more I turned it, the EASIER it got to turn - until the bolt snapped!

I removed the other 9 bolts and the head and was eventually able to get the remainder of the head bolt out with an easy- out. I found that the insert had not turned at all - it was at the same depth as I had set it! I re-installed the head and inserted and tightened the other set of bolts - the ones I had bought for the right bank. This time everything went just fine.

I don't understand what went wrong... could it have been a defective bolt? I plan on ordering a new set of Fel-Pro bolts for the right bank - I got them from Rock Auto - $28.79 per bank

I had a similar thing happen. That's why I was thinking about stopping at 45 degrees on the last pass (if I ever do another one). All but one of mine went above 90 ft-lbs. One seemed to "yeild" and only got to about 88 lb-ft. I was uncomfortable with it, but I left it in anyway and so far (6k miles) it is ok. I suspected the insert turning or stripping threads too. But after reading your post, I think my bolt was begining to fail too.

I think the Norm's inserts provide much greater holding power than the original aluminum threads. This puts a lot more stress on the unused section of the bolt threads between the bolt shank and the insert. Once this portion begins to yeild, there is very little warning before it fails. Rockauto bolt quality is probably less consistant than OEM too.

submariner409 · #79 (**permalink**) 01-29-08, 11:00 AM

Unfortunately bolts are no longer made of anything approaching uniform quality because the majority are made overseas. I have no idea where GM/Ford get their bolts from, but I'll bet the farm it ain't Taiwan.

For our Olds 455 boat engines we use exclusively ARP, and have great results. I have no idea if they make N* bolts or kits. Worth a phone call.
Not cheap, though.......

NHRATA01 · #80 (**permalink**) 01-29-08, 12:15 PM

ARP would be a great option if they have bolts that will work with an N*. I used them in my LS1 and got rid of the pain in the butt torque-to-yield factory style bolts. I didn't like the idea of repeatedly cranking on headbolts in an aluminum block as hard as was required for TTY bolts. The ARP's should clamp better, and be a bit easier on the N* block threads.

tateos · #81 (**permalink**) 01-29-08, 12:39 PM

97CONCOURS1 - you bring up a good point I had not thought of - the bolt DID break above the insert - I never really thought about that - there were only about 5 threads left on the bolt. As tight as these bolts are tightened, I am surprised the aluminum EVER held. The FSM does specify just two 60 degree turns after the initial torqueing, but that has been revised to 3 60 degree turns (or is it 2 60s and a 70?), so maybe that is why the aluminum was strong enough from the factory.

AJxtcman · #82 (**permalink**) 01-30-08, 10:23 PM

I found a set of heads on ebay. Guess what came out with these bolts?

tateos · #83 (**permalink**) 01-31-08, 01:14 PM

AJ - that looks familiar.

I guess I have to make a confession to you guys. I left this out of my posts so far, but when I removed the head, after breaking the bolt, one of the OTHER bolts came out with the insert still attached. It did not strip - it just unscrewed. I apparently forgot to apply Loctite to that insert, and the sealer on the bolts was strong enough to hold the insert and cause the insert to turn out. I installed the extra insert that Norm supplies, with Loctite this time, and everything went fine.

krechtr · #84 (**permalink**) 01-31-08, 10:46 PM

Tateos... I'm glad you have this thread. I just bought a 99 Seville for a song and dance last weekend 'cause it has a bad HG and a botched re-paint on the passenger side. I originally planned to use the N* for my Jeep and part the rest of the car out but... WOW.. it's a nice car and I don't have the heart to gut it. The plan now is to fix the motor, fix the botched Maaco repaint and sell it. I took the motor out last weekend (yeah... what a pain). I WAS planning to replace the head gaskets this weekend and get the motor back in the car UNTIL I read you post. I have replaced many a head gasket but the N* seems to be quite a different animal. I don't have a service manual and was hoping to "work" my way through it. Like everyone said... the Haynes manual isn't exactly a wealth of information on this. I have a couple of questions: 1. The Haynes manual tells you how to do MOST of the "sub-tasks" as far as I can tell... is there something I will miss without the service manual? I don't really want to spend the money if I don't have to for 1 job. 2. The rear head is the problem... is there any reason why I should do the front head? AND 3. What are the chances I can get away with replacing the head without installing inserts? If all of the headbolts come out clean when i remove them is it even worth trying?

**Ranger** · #85 (**permalink**) 01-31-08, 11:14 PM

Just my $0.02
Do both heads while the motor is out. Don't attempt it without Timeserting. Some threads may pull on final torquing or will likely fail later. I realize you are going to sell it, but personally I would rather do the job right and sell it with a clean conscience.

krechtr · #86 (**permalink**) 01-31-08, 11:29 PM

Ranger... I'm not trying to sell anyone a lemon or I would have just put some barsleak in it and called it a day. Thank's for the advice. Like I said, it is a really nice car (I don't know how many cows had to die for that interior). Does anyone know the best deal for the timeserts?

**Ranger** · #87 (**permalink**) 02-01-08, 12:08 AM

Don't misunderstand me, I didn't mean to imply that you were.

http://www.timesert.com.
You might find a used kit on Ebay. Probably have to get the serts from Timesert. Or you might try Norms inserts on ebay. AJ seems to like them much better.

Destroyer · #88 (**permalink**) 02-01-08, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krechtr

Tateos... I'm glad you have this thread. I just bought a 99 Seville for a song and dance last weekend 'cause it has a bad HG and a botched re-paint on the passenger side. I originally planned to use the N* for my Jeep and part the rest of the car out but... WOW.. it's a nice car and I don't have the heart to gut it. The plan now is to fix the motor, fix the botched Maaco repaint and sell it. I took the motor out last weekend (yeah... what a pain). I WAS planning to replace the head gaskets this weekend and get the motor back in the car UNTIL I read you post. I have replaced many a head gasket but the N* seems to be quite a different animal. I don't have a service manual and was hoping to "work" my way through it. Like everyone said... the Haynes manual isn't exactly a wealth of information on this. I have a couple of questions: 1. The Haynes manual tells you how to do MOST of the "sub-tasks" as far as I can tell... is there something I will miss without the service manual? I don't really want to spend the money if I don't have to for 1 job. 2. The rear head is the problem... is there any reason why I should do the front head? AND 3. What are the chances I can get away with replacing the head without installing inserts? If all of the headbolts come out clean when i remove them is it even worth trying?

So you are attempting to do a $3000-$4500 repair on a $2-$3k car?. LOL, good luck.

Zorb750 · #89 (**permalink**) 02-01-08, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destroyer

So you are attempting to do a $3000-$4500 repair on a $2-$3k car?. LOL, good luck.

It's not even a $1000 repair if he does it himself.

krechtr · #90 (**permalink**) 02-01-08, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destroyer

So you are attempting to do a $3000-$4500 repair on a $2-$3k car?. LOL, good luck.

They are going for between $5 and $10K on Craigslist... plus I'm a pretty good salesman. I guess if took it to a shop they may charge me $2 or $3K but if I took my cars to the shop I wouldn't be spending time in this forum. I got all the info last night I need from another website to fix this without a manual. Even with paint, parts and buying a NEW timesert kit I will have less than a grand in this car... worst case, I will cut it up and still make money. Want to buy some leather seats? What?

Ranger.... I didn't misunderstand you... you were right and I appreciate your advice. I like to think of myself as a quasi-perfectionist so I want the job done right. I talked to a caddy tech and he told me that I only need to replace any bad threads and the threads that surround them. Since I have to buy the timesert kit anyway just for this job, however, I am just going to go ahead and do them all.