DeVille vs DTS
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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, DeVille vs DTS in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; How does the DTS create 25 more horsepower than the standard 2000 DeVille?...
  1. #1
    Ray89 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    DeVille vs DTS

    How does the DTS create 25 more horsepower than the standard 2000 DeVille?

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    Katshot's Avatar
    Katshot is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Exhaust, better gearing and programming are the only differences between the cars. You be the judge.

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    LymanSS is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Are you sure the cams aren't different? I thought I recalled them saying that they could make cams that produced more torque, or more power, but not both, which is the advantage of the new cam phasing ability on the next gen northstar (everyone else has had cam phasing for years now). Maybe it was just exhaust, but I was under the impression that there was an internal difference.

    Scott

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    Katshot's Avatar
    Katshot is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Gen I Northstars are all the same. Gen II like the ones coming in the XLR and SRX will have variable cam technology. This is actually old news. Other manufacturers have been using it for a couple years. It allows one engine to benefit from multiple cam shaft profiles, which means good bottom end AND good top end.
    Ain't technology a wonderful thing?

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    BeelzeBob's Avatar
    BeelzeBob is offline I'm a Cadillac Fanatic!
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    So technically, you can take an SLS or ESC and turn it into an STS or ETC with a chip, exhaust and bigger gears?

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    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    i heard the difference between the 2 is due to more aggressive cam timing.


    there are other difference between the two such as gear ratio, center console but main reason for the power difference is the cam.

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    Katshot's Avatar
    Katshot is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    To be honest, I've heard that the engines are the same from some some people, and that they're different from the aspect of the cams from others. I've just never checked it out for myself.
    I'm likely to believe they ARE different since they have their own VIN designation. One phone call to the dealer would certainly solve the issue. If the cams are different, the parts dept. would be able to tell you.
    If it IS just the cams, then modifying the SLS to STS spec would be FAIRLY easy. I would warn anyone that hasn't done this type of work on a Northster to find out more about the procedure. There ARE some special tools needed, and you DO require some specialized knowledge.

  9. #8
    kcnewell is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    There's also some differences in the programming of the ECM and you must also take into consideration the gear ratio differences.

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    jadcock is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    The Touring variants (STS, DTS, etc.) have the L37 Northstar...the others have the LD8 Northstar. Discounting the new RWD blocks with variable valve timing, the two engines are exactly the same with one different -- the intake valves' camshaft profile. Higher lift and duration on the intake valves. This produces 25 more horsepower and 5 fewer lb*ft of torque.

    Other differences in the vehicles is PCM programming and transaxle ratio. The L37 cars are mated to a 3.71:1 final drive and the LD8 cars have a 3.11:1 final drive. Other than that, the cars are the same. Same intake systems, same exhaust systems, etc.

    Note that each engine has its own torque curve, and is matched nicely to that final drive ratio. In other words, if you put an L37 engine into an SLS, the result would not be as amazing as you think. The L37 makes less torque (and less horsepower across most of the rpm range) than the LD8...couple that with the SLS's 3.11 final drive, and you'd have worse performance than what you started with. Likewise, sticking in a 3.71 final drive transmission into an SLS (or DHS, etc.) wouldn't give you fantastic performance either because the engine would rev up faster than it's really designed to breathe at -- it would lose its breath as it revved up to fast.

    They really are installed as a total package and changing one particular thing (like the cams) without addressing anything else will really turn your performance downhill.

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    kcnewell is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    That's more or less what I was gettin' at but I was in to much of a rush to go into one of my famous marathon posts!

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    jadcock's Avatar
    jadcock is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Originally posted by Katshot
    Gen I Northstars are all the same. Gen II like the ones coming in the XLR and SRX will have variable cam technology. This is actually old news. Other manufacturers have been using it for a couple years. It allows one engine to benefit from multiple cam shaft profiles, which means good bottom end AND good top end.
    Ain't technology a wonderful thing?
    One thing to note about the Cadillac system is that it can vary the cam timing on BOTH the intake and the exhaust camshafts. No other manufacturer has this on their engines to my knowledge. I think Caddy is a first there.

  13. #12
    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Originally posted by jadcock
    One thing to note about the Cadillac system is that it can vary the cam timing on BOTH the intake and the exhaust camshafts. No other manufacturer has this on their engines to my knowledge. I think Caddy is a first there.
    i think vtec-i already does all that with sort of on and off switch mode.
    There are quite a few cars that uses variable cam system.

  14. #13
    jadcock's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Devil_concours
    i think vtec-i already does all that with sort of on and off switch mode.
    There are quite a few cars that uses variable cam system.
    Yes they use a variable cam system, but it only adjusts the valve timing on the intake valves. The exhaust cam is a fixed deal, like a conventional engine.

    The new Northstar has two separate sets of variable timing mechanisms (well, four in total). There's a separate timing mechanism on EACH camshaft, meaning that both the intake and the exhaust cams' timing can be adjusted on the fly. This is not the case with any other vehicle.

    However, I think BMW has everyone beat already. Their premium V8 and V12 engines use no throttle blade. The way they throttle the engine is by varying the LIFT on the valves -- so the engine is "wide open throttle" all the time, but if little air is required like at idle, the valves just crack open. I think that's pretty slick.

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    Devil_concours is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Originally posted by jadcock
    Yes they use a variable cam system, but it only adjusts the valve timing on the intake valves. The exhaust cam is a fixed deal, like a conventional engine.

    The new Northstar has two separate sets of variable timing mechanisms (well, four in total). There's a separate timing mechanism on EACH camshaft, meaning that both the intake and the exhaust cams' timing can be adjusted on the fly. This is not the case with any other vehicle.

    However, I think BMW has everyone beat already. Their premium V8 and V12 engines use no throttle blade. The way they throttle the engine is by varying the LIFT on the valves -- so the engine is "wide open throttle" all the time, but if little air is required like at idle, the valves just crack open. I think that's pretty slick.
    irc, i-vtec does control exhaust well as intake.

  16. #15
    LymanSS is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    I couple years ago it was true that everyone was just varying intake. But now almost everyone is adding exhaust variability. BMW has "Double Vanos." I forget what everyone else calls it, but it's getting to be pretty commonplace. A lot of them are starting to vary lift now. BMW does that. Porsche does it with the 911. I think Honda even has a variable lift system in some car now. Don't worry...caddy is far from first with this system. That doesn't mean it won't be the best though.

    Scott

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