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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, No spark in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Hi guys, Need your help again. I have completed the tear down of the 97 eldorado. I installed the sure ...
  1. #1
    97 Eldorad0 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    No spark

    Hi guys, Need your help again. I have completed the tear down of the 97 eldorado. I installed the sure grip head bolts, and now I have put it back together. After numerous issues with wiring harness, I think I have found homes for nearly all plugs and grounds. I wanted to crank it up before putting radiator back in just to see. Therefore, I have not connected the two front fan plugs. Also, I have not put fluid in the power steering, or brake system yet. And so you'll know, I added what I thought was a LOT of oil (6 or 7 quarts) and it barely registers on the dip stick. I tried to crank it up anyway-nothing. Motor turns (nothing is hitting) but there is no spark. I pulled the number eight plug wire (and then the number 2) and neither had spark so I assume the other 2 do not either. Broke out the electric meter reader and learned all fuses seem to be OK (except cig lighter). Then moved to coil pack. It has four plugs-two on each side. Three out of four showed nothing on meter (could be me) but one seemed to show power to it.
    Although I am perplexed a little, I think it is probably something stupid that I am over looking. I say this because at first, whenn I pulled one of the four wires going to coil (front drivers side) the head lights would come on. Plug it back in and they go off. Found a ground wire (another one good grief) and that problem stopped. Could there be a ground wire somewhere that I have missed? Having said that, there is one ground(I think) that is absent. I hope you guys can tell me what goes there an dhow important it is. It just so happens to be connected to the same nut that connects the coil pack ground wire. There is anotherr wire there that has been stripped off and I see no exposed wire hanging around that should go there. I will attach a picture shortly. Thanks for any suggestions trouble shooting this.

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  3. #2
    97 Eldorad0 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: No spark

    Here is the wire that is connected to same nut that grounds coils pack. The small wire is missing.test 2.JPG

  4. #3
    Submariner409's Avatar
    Submariner409 is online now If it won't run, slap in a big stereo
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    Re: No spark

    Your engine takes 7.5 quarts of oil with filter. That brings the proper level to <== XXXXXXXXXX ==== on the dipstick. The oil level warning goes on at about 2 quarts low - just about where there's barely a trace of oil on the tip of the dipstick.

    Read the articles on oil, oil life, and oil consumption way up ^^^ in the top black bar - the Cadillac Technical Archive.

    You need every ground to be clean and tight - and connected. If the ground wire from the ICM to the engine is not connected, the engine probably will not run.

  5. #4
    98eldo32v's Avatar
    98eldo32v is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: No spark

    This is going to be ugly.

    Check cam sensor at the cylinder head.

    Make sure crankshaft position sensors plugs are in the right spots and connected. Gray connector for top sensor, black connector on bottom sensor on a 97. MAKE SURE YOU HEAR THEM "CLICK" when connected.

    I just finished studding Eldorado-Red's engine. I didn't push the connectors to the crankshaft position sensors in all the way.....NO START.

    When it tries to run, the engine will give a little hiccup, Stop.

    Turn the key off, then restart. It should fire right up the second time.

    ----------

    If it's an ETC, you're going to love the way it runs.


    Eldorado_Red's ETC was unreal when we drove it. I couldn't believe how quick it was for such a massive car.

    It impressed me so much I'm looking for an ETC to add to my ESC and Deville.

    Good luck with yours.....

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    Ranger's Avatar
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    Re: No spark

    Regarding the ground wire. I can't see where that one is attached, but the nylon fuel rail had a ground wire attached. When GM did the fuel rail recall, the mechanics would simply cut the ground wire rather than take the time to remove it. It was located at the front of the fuel rail near the P/S pump. The SS rail needed no ground wire as it was grounded by mounting it. Perhaps that is what you are looking at.

  7. #6
    97 Eldorad0 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: No spark

    Thanks for the replies. The ICM is grounded. The picture of that stripped off wire is grounded to the same bolt as the ICM.

    "Make sure crankshaft position sensors plugs are in the right spots and connected. Gray connector for top sensor, black connector on bottom "

    Is that possible? I mean, I've noticed that most plugs are self explanatory as they are a little different, and wiring harness doesn't allow most plugs to stray. Will they plug into each other and does the harness allow for this error?

    Let me ask this while im thinking of it. When I took it apart, and found TDC @ cylinder #1, the two sprockets where at 1 oclock and 12 oclock, as opposede to 6 and 12. When assembled it was put at 6 and 12. This doesn't matter right? That top timing sprocket doesn't turn anything right?

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    Re: No spark

    Not 100% positive, but I believe this diagram is for #1 @ TDC.


  9. #8
    Submariner409's Avatar
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    Re: No spark

    That diagram assumes the engine is set at #1 TDC.

    The crank sprocket turns the intermediate which turns both chains (4 cam sprockets).

    Upon assembly the dots align at 12, 6, 12, 12, 12, 12.

    Some engines have the right exhaust cam sprocket stampings (RE) offset from the dot - use the dot.

  10. #9
    97 Eldorad0 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: No spark

    As long as the intermediate sprocket does't actually turn anything, I don't see why it would matter. The #1 cylinder was TDC on the compression stroke( all valves closed) and when disassembled, the intermediate sprocket was at 1 oclock. Since there are x number of teeth on that sprocket, every time around ends up a different place until it repeats that pattern. In other words, TDC is found when these two sprockets are 1 and 12 AND 6 and 12. The cylinders all fell in the same place at both locations so I just put it back at 6 and 12 figuring it doesn't matter and the intermediate sprocket turns nothing (just a chain guide of sorts connecting several together in sequence).

    ----------

    "Not 100% positive, but I believe this diagram is for #1 @ TDC."

    And that's how I put it back. When I took it apart, the # 1 cylinder was TDC, crank was at 12 and all four cam dots were at 12 oclock (within a tooth or so). The things this issue will make you think of...

    ----------

    BTW, I even marked the flywheel and it was at same location when re assembling (6 and 12 oclock) just like it was at 1 and 12 oclock. Unless there is an intermediate sprocket sensor, I don't understand how this would matter. It seems to be a math equation using the number of teeth on the intermediate sprocket and the number of teeth on the crank sprocket.

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    Submariner409's Avatar
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    Re: No spark

    With everything initially properly aligned, everything - valve-wise - will be "in time" every 720 degrees of crank rotation. All the chains and dots will align as in the diagram every 17 crank rotations.

    The crank chain turns the intermediate sprocket; the intermediate sprocket turns both cam chains which turn the cam sprockets. The odd number of teeth and different intermediate sprocket diameters figures in there somewhere. The GM service manual discusses this phenomenon.

    If you had kept manually rolling the engine over you would have reached the point at which all the dots were as in the diagram.

  12. #11
    97 Eldorad0 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: No spark

    'Make sure crankshaft position sensors plugs are in the right spots and connected. Gray connector for top sensor, black connector on bottom"

    That was the problem!!! Yay!! I heard her come to life tonight for the first time. The fuel is disgusting and filled with water(was sitting for years) so I must drain it. I also have to hook up radiator, brakes, transmission, and steering lines. I also have to replace one cv axel. Not sure what I would have done without you guys. I can't thank you enough.

    ----------

    I guess I forgot.....I had those plugs reversed( you get no spark). Just wanted that to be clear for future readers. It's amaziing that those plugs ARE even reversable. It seemed like every plug was a lttle bigger or smaller and was next to impossible to mess up.....except these two....at least they weren't important LOL.
    98eldo32v likes this.

  13. #12
    Harry Yarnell is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: No spark

    This was poor engineering on GM's part. Those two connectors should have been different. That said, the two sensors are the same...
    Reminds me of an issue years ago when we were installing a computer lab at the University of MD, and there were two routers involved; both from the same vendor, same part number. Both had external power supplies; only one was AC, and the other DC. Same connectors for both routers. Sure enough, we hooked them up to the wrong power packs, and blew them. ...Something about a mid-production change...

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    Re: No spark

    I could be wrong, but I thought when I installed my new CKP sensors they where different, but that was over a year ago and I have CRS.

    From Sub409 ..... How did I do this ???

    Up to ??? 98 ??? the CKPs were the same mechanically and electrically - you had to know which connector went to which CKP. The later ones are both mechanically and electrically (connectors) different - one CKP fits one hole and only one connector will match.

    Here's a pair of 2002 CKPs ...........
    Attached Images

  15. #14
    98eldo32v's Avatar
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    Re: No spark

    To get most of the fuel out:

    Jack vehicle up, preferably high enough to get a bucket or extremely large drain pan underneath the vehicle.

    Remove fuel filter, save the retarded plastic bracket that holds it onto the other lines.

    Angle flexible line towards the bucket.

    Depending on the amount of fuel in there this might take a while but goes rather quickly.

    Hop in front seat, cycle ignition key to "On/Run" for 3-5 seconds, then turn off.

    Repeat until you get the majority of the fuel out, which will stink.

    Replace fuel filter, replenish gas, enjoy vehicle..........

  16. #15
    Eldorado_RED is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: No spark

    Crazy that we had this same exact problem...spent 2 days buying and replacing parts, pulling hair out and punching puppies just for it to be the crankshaft sensors. Glad you were able to get it running

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