Stumble and stall
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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, Stumble and stall in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; ...
  1. #1
    83CADMAN's Avatar
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    Question Stumble and stall

    Too good to be true! 2k miles with no problems after head stud install. Wouldn’t you know it!
    The engine stumbled a couple of times then stalled at a traffic light. It started up again but only after 2nd try. By the time I got it home, (about ¼ mile) the “SERVICE ENGINE SOON” light came on. I checked for codes and what came up was “P083”, “Crankshaft to Ignition Module Failure”.
    Being the novice mechanic that I am, confusion is my first response. Before I start throwing cash at it I thought it beneficial to seek direction from this forum. It has been most helpful in the past. So Please, any clarification to remedying this condition would be most helpful.

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  3. #2
    Submariner409's Avatar
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    Re: Stumble and stall

    Which car ?

    If it's the '94 (?? Northstar ??), I would suspect either a bad ICM (Ignition Control Module)(coil pack base) CMP connector or a bad ICM-to-engine ground wire.

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    Quote Originally Posted by Submariner409 View Post
    Which car ?

    If it's the '94 (?? Northstar ??), I would suspect either a bad ICM (Ignition Control Module)(coil pack base) CMP connector or a bad ICM-to-engine ground wire.
    Yes its my 94 N*. This is the N* forum?
    Thanks for the diagram.
    I was underneith checking connections and noticed the crank sensor (CMP?) connector was wet from frost melt off the A/C comp and / or covered with oil. could this be the culprit. I tightened the sensor and stopped the minute oil drip. I did have this engine out of the car and that particular connection was disconected. I'll go back under and clean it up, clear the code & see what happens.

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    CMP = Camshaft Position sensor
    CKP = CranKshaft Position sensor.

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    Thanks Ranger for the acronyms and their definitions.
    In post#3, I was referring to my visual inspection of the crankshaft position sensor, (CKP) and its electrical connector. My confusion over acronym was based upon the reference to “CMP connector" made by Submariner409 in post #2.

    Sub, why would the camshaft position sensor (CMP) be suspect?

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    The CKP's are the ignition and fuel injector triggers. The CMP is the primary cylinder TDC reference to the PCM - and all those pulses flying around are what gets everything to spark and spray at exactly the right instant.

    More acronyms in the sticky just above this thread.

    The CMP is located in the front (passenger end) of the right (rear) cylinder head directly in front of the exhaust cam sprocket - it's tripped by a small bulge dot in the sprocket face - Hall effect. The connectors sometimes get corroded or loose - or the CMP itself loses continuity in the magnetic trigger coil.

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    OK! It could be this or it could be that or it could be that other thing. I get it! I could have picked up a Chilton.

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    Don't waste your money on Chilton or Haynes. If you want a service manual I would strongly recommend A FSM by Helm Inc. Ebay is your friend.

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    I have a FSM.

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    Oh, I just went back and reread post #7............................ and just got it.

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    That OK Ranger, I went back into my FSM and discovered what I was looking at and fiddling with in post #3 was in fact the oil level sending unit. Like I said before, “Being the novice mechanic that I am, confusion is my first response”.
    So after a couple of hours with my FSM I did find information concerning the crankshaft sensors tucked up behind the engine mount and exhaust manifold. I can bearly see them much less get my hand in there.

    This is the kind of heads up I was looking for on this forum.
    1. Remove lower splash guard
    2. Remove upper splash guard
    3. Remove front upper engine mounts from bulkhead
    4. Remove air filter box
    5. Remove cooling fans
    6. Install lifting device to engine
    7. Remove front lower engine mount and brace

    This is to just gain access to the sensors in order to check / remove / replace.
    Plus the cost to replace them is around $60 each.
    If I have to go to that length to access them replacement of both sensors are warrented.
    For $120 I would like to be sure so I’m gona brave this again;

    Question:
    Is there a way to test the sensors without going to the extreme listed above. Shop tricks, anything?

  13. #12
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    Re: Stumble and stall

    I just replace my CKP sensors last summer. No need for all that BS. You will need a looong extension, a universal joint and a set of metric sockets. Remove the lower air deflector. Remove the oil filter and then the filter adapter (3 long bolts). That will give you the clearance you need to get at the CKP sensors. It's still gonna be tight and you'll still curese the designing engineer, but it's doable (MUCH easier if you can get access to a lift).

    I think I paid $77 for both (incl shipping) from Amazon.

    Not sure how you would go about testing them (or if you even can). Mine would fail intermittently and rarely, but I knew the symptoms so I just changed them.

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    Re: Stumble and stall

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
    I just replace my CKP sensors last summer. No need for all that BS. You will need a looong extension, a universal joint and a set of metric sockets. Remove the lower air deflector. Remove the oil filter and then the filter adapter (3 long bolts). That will give you the clearance you need to get at the CKP sensors. It's still gonna be tight and you'll still curese the designing engineer, but it's doable (MUCH easier if you can get access to a lift).

    I think I paid $77 for both (incl shipping) from Amazon.

    Not sure how you would go about testing them (or if you even can). Mine would fail intermittently and rarely, but I knew the symptoms so I just changed them.
    All right! Information I could have used.
    I found both CKP sensors and a oil pressure unit at Auto Zone, all for $70 and decided to replace them. Out of frustration I tore into it yesterday, and of course I pulled the fans and engine mount. I got the job done, it was a …, and I’m not sure yet if it fixed the problem. Today I guess I’ll drive around, waste gas to see if it kicks a code. I need this car to go out of town later this week.
    Damn, I didn’t think to pull the oil filter!!!!!

  15. #14
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    Re: Stumble and stall

    Too bad you didn't check in first. We would have told you to stay away from those cheap unreliable AZ Don'tLast parts. They may be guaranteed for life, but how many times do you want to do that job.

  16. #15
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    Re: Stumble and stall

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
    Too bad you didn't check in first. We would have told you to stay away from those cheap unreliable AZ Don'tLast parts. They may be guaranteed for life, but how many times do you want to do that job.
    Ummmm! I think I did check in first. Post number 1, PCM fault code!

    All the advice I got was about acronyms and CAMshaft sensor!
    The next time I’ll remove the oil filter and adapter and shop elseware for parts, thank you very much. Compared to the route I took it should be a simple task.
    By the way, sensor replacement fixed the problem.

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