Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement
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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Hi all, I was getting a P0386 consistently every couple of times I started the car. The code has not ...
  1. #1
    turbojimmy's Avatar
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    Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Hi all,

    I was getting a P0386 consistently every couple of times I started the car. The code has not reappeared for about a week now but the car does stall at random (consistent with others' stories about bad crank sensors). The engine will also 'shut off' while accelerating and then 'turn back on'. No codes. Could this also be the crank sensors?

    So I ordered a pair of crank sensors. They don't look too hard to replace. The manual says to run the CKP system variation learn procedure after replacing the sensors. Is this critical? Or can I just pop the new ones in and forget about it.

    TIA,
    Jim

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    mcowden is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    It does sound like a crank position sensors problem. I don't know about the learn procedure, but unless I'm misunderstanding how those sensors work, I'm not sure what there would be to calibrate or "re-learn." bbob?
    Mike

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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Good question. I am having the same issues but get a P0335 code for the "A" sensor. I was thinking on attempting the repair myself but if you need a tech2 to reprogram them.......

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    tttjump is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    I just replaced two ckp sensors. Took about 45 minutes. I did not do a relearn procedure. Codes are clear, cars starts up and does not stall so far. What does the manual say about a relearn procedure? I had both codes for the A and B sensors. 2000 STS.

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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by tttjump
    I just replaced two ckp sensors. Took about 45 minutes. I did not do a relearn procedure. Codes are clear, cars starts up and does not stall so far. What does the manual say about a relearn procedure? I had both codes for the A and B sensors. 2000 STS.
    How about your symptoms? Did it buck or stumble at part throttle?

    The manual says that after you replace them you need to run the CKP System Variation Learn procedure. From what I understand, the procedure learns 'normal' crankshaft variations so that the PCM can tell the difference between 'normal' and a misfire. My interpretation is this: The normal crankshaft variation wouldn't change by swapping out the sensors, but the new sensors may be reporting slightly different values and could cause a P0300 error when no misfire actually exists.

    I'll just swap them out and see what happens.

    Also the manual says to remove the motor mount in that area, but nothing about the oil filter adapter. tttjump: which do you think is easier?

    Thanks!

    Jim

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    tttjump is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    I would not do the motor mount. I attempted that at first becuase it is right in front of the sensor and seem to be the easiest. I then tried the oil filter housing, two bolts 10mm, the oil filter housing has two o-rings that may need replacing. Once the housing is removed the sensor take about 5 minutes each to replace. The oil filter housing takes about 10 minutes to replace. Total time took about 25 minutes. The sensors pop out, push on them when putting them in until you hear them pop back in. Make sure to put oil on the o-ring on the CKP sensor before installing them.
    I replaced them becuase the ckp code for the b sensor was coming on and the car would stumble, stall or take eaxtra cranks to start. The code for the A sensor started coming on when the B sensor went away. They both came on and the car would die and not restart. It took about 5 months from when the trouble started for the car to completely not start.
    The car started up right away after replacing the sensors. It does run a liitle rough at idle. Does the manual say how to do a relaern procedure?

    Hope that helps

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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by tttjump
    It does run a liitle rough at idle. Does the manual say how to do a relaern procedure?

    Hope that helps
    It does help - thanks.

    The dealer has to do the CKP relearn procedure with the Tech2. It was just done on my car when they reflashed the PCM so I don't want to pay to have it done again. My idle is a little rough, too but then so is my dad's '02 Deville. It was the first thing I noticed about it. It's very, very subtle, but it's there. Almost like a miss.

    The stumble, stalling and P0386 code have not returned in about 150 miles and about 15-20 starts. I'm going to keep the sensors since they're on their way, but I'm not going to mess with them unless things get worse.

    Jim

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    tttjump is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Hello, well just hope that when they go they dont leave you someplace far from home. Mines got to the point where it would not stall until after it warmed up and then it would take about 20 minutes before it would retstart. Good thing the battery was well charged. Any one else know anything about the relearn procedure? How much did the dealer want to do the relearn procedure?

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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by tttjump
    Hello, well just hope that when they go they dont leave you someplace far from home. Mines got to the point where it would not stall until after it warmed up and then it would take about 20 minutes before it would retstart. Good thing the battery was well charged. Any one else know anything about the relearn procedure? How much did the dealer want to do the relearn procedure?
    Yeah, I like to live on the edge. I've got AAA Plus which gives me an extended towing range. I don't venture more than 25 miles away from home on a typical day. I took it to work and back today (15 miles each way) and it was fine.

    I don't know how much the learn procedure was, it was lumped into the hours they spent reprogramming the car after I swapped out all of the modules.

    Jim

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    tttjump is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Here is a website the explains the learn procedure and the when and the why
    http://www.seattleautomotive.com/ckpdoc.htm
    I also found a website the mentions something about recalibrating the controllers.
    It does mention the dealer and a tech2 scan tool.

  12. #11
    haymaker is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by tttjump
    Here is a website the explains the learn procedure and the when and the why
    http://www.seattleautomotive.com/ckpdoc.htm
    I also found a website the mentions something about recalibrating the controllers.
    It does mention the dealer and a tech2 scan tool.
    That was very interesting, so even the removal of the harmonic balancer may cause a CKP trouble code to be set.

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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by haymaker
    That was very interesting, so even the removal of the harmonic balancer may cause a CKP trouble code to be set.
    It is interesting. It's the same explanation that's in the manual, I was just too lazy to type the whole thing.

    I swapped PCMs in my car and the first thing that happened was it stored a DTC for the 'relearn CKP variation'. When the dealer tried to run the test they couldn't get it to run. After goofing around with it they found that my TPS was bad and my TCC switch was always open. So the labor for the test was lumped into all the other stuff they did in order to get to the point where they could run the test. It can't be that much to have them run it. If I do change my sensors out I'll inquire as to the cost of the test.

    Jim

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    Exclamation Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    My 2001 had one go bad about 18 months ago. Strange but true....I had one sitting here that was sent in with a brake light core from a dealership.

    It was the older style....but worked ok for that 18 months. Now it starting to act up....funny starts....stalling....

    Anyway, picked up 2 new sensors today at Cadillac for about $90.

    As for the learn procedure...here it is.....



    CKP System Variation Learn Procedure
    After the powertrain control module (PCM) learns the amount of crankshaft position (CKP) system variation, the PCM stores the compensating values in the non-volatile area of the electrically erasable programmable read only memory (EEPROM). If the amount of crankshaft variation is outside the stored values, DTC P0300 may set. Refer to Diagnostic Aids for DTC P0300.

    The Crankshaft Position System Variation Learn Procedure should be performed for any of the following conditions:

    DTC P1336 is set
    PCM replacement
    Engine replacement
    Crankshaft replacement
    Crankshaft position sensor replacement
    Any engine repairs which disturbs crankshaft to crankshaft position sensor relationship

    Caution
    Before performing the Crankshaft Position System Variation Learning Procedure always set the vehicle parking brake and block the drive wheels in order to prevent personal injury. Release the throttle immediately when the engine starts to decelerate in order to eliminate over revving the engine. Once the learn procedure is completed, the control module will return engine control to the operator and the engine will respond to the throttle position.


    Set the parking brake.
    Block the drive wheels.
    Ensure the hood is closed.
    Start the engine and allow engine coolant temperature to reach at least 70°C (158°F).
    Turn OFF the ignition .
    Select and enable the crankshaft position variation learn procedure with the scan tool.
    Start the vehicle.
    Apply and hold the service brake pedal firmly.
    Ensure the transaxle is in park.
    Increase accelerator pedal position until the fuel cutoff is reached at 5,150 RPM. Immediately release the accelerator pedal after fuel cutoff is reached. The crankshaft position system variation compensating values are learned when the RPM decreases back to idle.
    Observe DTC status for DTC P1336.
    If the scan tool indicates that DTC P1336 ran and passed, the crankshaft position system variation learn procedure is complete. If the scan tool indicates DTC P1336 failed or not run, check for other DTCs. If no DTCs other than P1336 are set, repeat the crankshaft position system variation learn procedure as necessary.



    Logan Diagnostic
    www.ledfix.com
    www.airbagcrash.com

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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Thanks for the info Logan. The symptoms took a 2-day hiatus, but yesterday it stalled in my dad's driveway. Just once. I then made a 100-mile round-trip trek without incident.

    I need to go through emissions inspection again on Friday. They failed me for emissions because I didn't have enough mileage on the PCM (failed the 'operational readiness' test - what load of crap). They didn't even check it for emissions - just plugged into the OBDII port. Rejected. Hopefully the P0386 will stay away long enough to get a good sticker on the car. The P0386 has been gone for over a week now and hasn't returned. It's still too cold in this neck of the woods to be rolling around in the driveway under the car.

    Jim

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    Re: Crank Position Sensor Symptoms and Replacement

    Quote Originally Posted by tttjump
    I would not do the motor mount. I attempted that at first becuase it is right in front of the sensor and seem to be the easiest. I then tried the oil filter housing, two bolts 10mm, the oil filter housing has two o-rings that may need replacing.
    I attempted the motor mount. It's ridiculous. I gave up and it took me 45 minutes to get the 4-bolts back in the motor mount bracket. The service manual says that to replace the crank sensors that you need to remove the motor mount, which requires removing the engine cradle. Hours and hours and hours of labor. Yet the book says the crank sensor replacement is 1.1 hours.

    So, I'm back at square one and I'm going to take your advice like I should have in the beginning.

    Did you have to replace the o-rings on the oil filter housing? If so, where did you get them?

    Thanks,
    Jim

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