Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!
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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, Bbob - a leason on sealers, please! in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Bbob from a previous thread: "If I had known you were springing for a new oil manifold plate I would ...
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    Loose screw is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!

    Bbob from a previous thread:

    "If I had known you were springing for a new oil manifold plate I would have offered up another option...one that you can still use. Take you old plate and reuse it. Take the time to use a sharp tool and just dig/scrape the old, molded in silicone beaded seals out of the plate. You do not need to get the grooves that the molded beads are in perfectly clean but you do need to get most of the old seal out of it. Clean the plate up meticulously for grease and oil. Spray it with a good degreaser when you are finished to make sure that the plate is clean. Clean the mating surface of the LCC. Apply a THIN bead of RTV to the old seal grooves and assemble the plate to the LCC. Tension the main bolts and forget about it. The formed in place gasket with the RTV will make a perfect seal that you can forget about forever. Use a high quality RTV made for high temp automotive use such as the copper colored, high temp RTV. The challenge is to apply just a small bead...about twice as high a bead as the original molded seal bead was and to get the surfaces squeeky clean. The other challenge, which is easy in this case, is to wait for 24 hours for the RTV to cure before putting oil in the engine. The RTV must cure for 24 hours before seeing oil or it will not cure correctly...which is one main reason that gluing things together with RTV gets a bad rap....people don't wait for it to cure before "using" it. You can do the same thing with the oil pan. Take the molded seal out, fill the groove with RTV and assemble. Just make sure that both the seal groove and the mating surface are perfectly clean and the RTV makes a permanent joint. Engines that are "glued together" at the factory with RTV have, by far, the best oil leak history in the field. No comparison to "gaskets" and "seals". That is what I would do......"

    I have two questions:
    I am having a real problem finding Loctite 510 Gasket Eliminator local auto parts stores - does anyone have a GM part number for the anaerobic sealer my GM parts Guy can't find it.

    Bbob your above statement makes me wonder about using the copper high temp RTV on the half case too instead of the factory seal with the added anaerobic sealer. Which is better and why?

    Could you please also give us a leason in sealers and there proper and improper use and appropriate applictions - I for one could sure use it.

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    Re: Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!

    I have two questions:
    I am having a real problem finding Loctite 510 Gasket Eliminator local auto parts stores - does anyone have a GM part number for the anaerobic sealer my GM parts Guy can't find it.
    It is P/N 1052934 GM gasket maker (anerobic sealer). It comes in a red tube and is about $20

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    Re: Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!

    Thanks for the parts number Patrick.

    I seen a car last year that the half-case that had been RTVed but it was a very poor job, blue RTV was hagging out everywhere, when I seen it the engine was leaking a lot of oil while running - but is was not from there. Has anyone had any experience with RTVing the half-case?

    I assume that ussing RTV in place of an O ring in a pressurized location is a bad idea even if you let it cure for days or is it? I tore down a small close fitting metal part that had RTV applied two days earilier and it was just as soft as when it came out of the tube - I concluded, no air, no cure - it was under the same condition as when it was in the air tight tube. Also in a pressure sealing O ring location wouldn't the compression of the O ring be necessary to seal off the pressure and with RTV that compression would be absent if you don't leave some tighting for after it cures? And if the RTV sqwishes out and inbetween other near by surfaces it may prevent them from touching and preventing the RTV in the O ring location from being compressed after the RTV has curred? I am just trying get my head on straight here - tighten an few of my loose screws.

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    Re: Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!


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    Re: Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!

    My understanding is that even when you replace the 1/2 case seals, you should still use the anerobic sealer on the outside of the seal, I reckon as a redundant seal. I sealed the 1/2 case and then had to pull it apart again within an hour and I can tell you the anerobic sealer cures very quickly.

    The manual says that you can use RTV to replace the seals in the oil pan and oil manifold plate. personally I prefer to use new seals.

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    Re: Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!

    One could write a book here and it would still be incomplete so it is impossible to write a primer on sealants in general.

    Fundamentally, RTV is an excellent sealant but it is often used in the wrong applications and mis-used or mis-installed causing it's poor reputation. Rules of thumb with RTV.....

    ...use only as much as is required...to much does not help.

    ...do not use in a "zero gap" joint..i.e..where the joint goes metal to metal. RTV needs some thickness to work correctly or some space to fill such as a groove or notch.

    ...all surfaces must be squeeky clean for RTV to adhere and cure correctly.

    ...you must allow the RTV to cure for 24 hours before covering it in oil or using the device. This is the reason most RTV joints and seals fail. Oil contacting RTV before it cures causes an incomplete curing that will cause the RTV to fail prematurely.

    ...silicone seals and molded silicone seals such as the cam cover seals, oil pan seals, oil distribution plate, phenolic spacer plate gaskets, etc...can be very successfully repaired with a thin skim of RTV at assembly. Just be judicious with the RTV, use a quality product, clean clean clean the surfaces before assembling and applying the RTV and allow the RTV to cure after assembly before filling the engine with oil or exposing the joint to oil or grease.

    ....the BEST "RTV" is the "Three bond" product that is sold over the counter at the GM dealers in various sizes. Commercially available RTV's in tubes on the parts shelf are OK but not as good as ThreeBond for engine assembly in my experience.



    The aneorobic products such as the Loctite Gasket Eliminator and the various GM aneorobic sealants are designed for zero gap joints where the joint goes metal to metal with no groove or space in the joint.

    ....the anerobic sealant is applied to the lower crankcase to block joint IN ADDITION TO THE MOLDED SILICONE SEAL to act as a redundant seal in the event the molded silicone seal allows oil to pass it due to surface defect in the groove or something.

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    Re: Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pjs
    The manual says that you can use RTV to replace the seals in the oil pan and oil manifold plate. personally I prefer to use new seals.
    Which manual are you using the? The 1994 servuce manual from GM that I can find no reference to using RTV on the oil pan or manifold plate Does yours make any statement about using RTV on the half case?

    Though I seen one engine with RTV on the half case I still have a concern that is may interfer with the case coming together completely there by creating extra clearance and not enough cruch on the main bearings. But the RTV is used only at the outer part of the case and not at the mating surfaces near the bearing. So it may be ok, but it may also not be exceptable for some other reason I have no clue about. If it can be used there it should make a very reliable seal. I wish I could get Bbob to respond to that one point before I assemble the case tomorrow, he really knows what he is talking about. He does say to use a small amount at the crackshaft oil seal where the cases come togeher around the oil seal but statement dosen't include or imply that the rest of th case is ok. So the question remains can and should RTV be used to seal the whole halfcase - and with or without the factory seal in place. Please Bbob help!

    The Oil Manifold Plate and oil pan on the other hand in which Bbob and you say the manual you are using says that it is ok to us RTV in place of the preformed seal would not create a clearance concern if it prevented metal to metal contact and Bbob say it makes a superior seal at thouse locations.

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    Re: Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!

    Thanks Bbob - could you please address the question: can and would it be better to RTV the halfcase seal grove ( and what about with or without an addtional beed of anerobic seal) instead of using the factory premade seal with Anerobic Sealer combination?

    I went down to the GM dealer do to get my parts that had come in and I tried to get the right anerobic sealer you recomended - the high temperature Gasket Eleminator which they could not find before but this time I was armed with a part number 1052934 that PJS supplied in this thread. But they said that number had been discontinued and then he went and talked to a non-cadilac service writer and mechanic and came back with a red tube of Gasket Maker we had a lengthy discussion questioning - is this the right anerobic sealer for the halfcase - as the name was different and Locitite has two other products call "Gasket Maker" which are more flexible, designer for larger gaps, are thicker and have a lower heat rating. The halfcase application can get pretty hot and as you said is zero clearance outside of the seal grove- The service writer said it was the only one they use and they use it on many different applications but when I asked him if he knew for sure that this was the right one for the Northstar half case application he said he did not we don't have anyone here that works on them when we need it done ona car that has been traded in, we send it out to the Cadillac dealer.

    Has the Gasket Eliminator been replaced with this product What part number should I be sure to get? Should I use the factory halfcase seal or RTV the grove?
    Thanks - I know I am a pain about this but I need to make sure I do it the best way. I am taking your advice and taking back the seal to the other areas (oil pan, valve covers) and RTV them - before you recomended the high temp copper RTV which I did get but in the above post you say the "Three bond" is best do you have a GM part number?
    I know I should have just gone across town to the Cadillac dealer's parts counter but this GM parts department was giving me great deal on all my parts.

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    Re: Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!

    Use the correct gasket/seal on the lower crank case joint with the aneorobic sealer applied in addition to the molded silicone seal. Use a tiny dab of RTV at the joint of the side seal and the rear main seal and the front cover. don't RTV the entire joint. You really do not want to start a sealing development project here.

    I didn't mean to imply that it was better to RTV all the joints that you mention....use the factory seals. I mentioned that those seals could be repaired locally with a dab of RTV instead of replacing them due to local damage.

    Quite trying to reengineer the seals and joints...!!! The factory seals as designed work fine if installed correctly and there are no damaged surfaces or anything. There is really no need to start trying to experiment with different sealing techniques. Just put the thing together as outlined in the service manual. The addition of the aneorobic sealer (gasket eliminator) to the LCC joint is really the only additional thing that needs to be done. Otherwise, the seals and joints are all as originally built. I see the Loctite aneorobic gasket eliminator product in the red tube in just about every auto parts store I go into so it cannot be that hard to find.

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    Re: Bbob - a leason on sealers, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Loose screw
    Which manual are you using the? The 1994 servuce manual from GM that I can find no reference to using RTV on the oil pan or manifold plate Does yours make any statement about using RTV on the half case?
    I'm sorry to mislead you. I picked that up from the TSB's on All Data.com. They had whole procedures of how to reuse the oil manifold with new RTV, same with the oil pan.

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