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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, STP High mileage oil additive. in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Somebody with the right connections needs to shut the EPA down. All they are is a bunch of over-zealous tree ...
  1. #16
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    Somebody with the right connections needs to shut the EPA down. All they are is a bunch of over-zealous tree huggers who are nearly comatose on Al Gore's kool-aid.

  2. #17
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    When virtually all manufacturers went to roller cam followers it eliminated the last place in an internal combustion engine with high pressure sliding contact. At this point car makers went to the 5W-30 and 0W-30 oil viscioity recommendations and the reduction in ZDDP levels in motor oil. This produced better gas milage and longer CAT converter life with no loss in motor longevity. Unfortunately the old clunker owners with flat tappet cam followers are reduced to using motor oil formulated for trucks and diesels.

    ----------

    As far as I have read, there was never a legal connection between Slick 50 and STP beyond both being snake oil. STP got nailed by the FTC and Slick 50 was exposed in a bitter lawsuit between partners. One of the partners revealed under oath in court that the formula for Slick 50 was ground up scrap Teflon in reclaimed crankcase drainings.


    Another quote I remember from a NASA lubrication engineer about Slick 50 filling the pores and plating the moving parts in your engine was, "It sounds like a great theory. Too bad it doesn't work".
    Don't mess with Binky Bear!


  3. #18
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    My mind is made up - don't confuse me with facts.














    ........ and I get a good kickback when I sell the stuff.

  4. #19
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    "BUT - lower ZDDP levels also remove part of the anti-scuff protection that older flat-tappet engines need."

    Ok, this is a catch 22. The EPA wants converters to last 120k, that's nice. MAKE THEM MORE RUGGED.

    Someone help me out here, a converter that out lives the engine or an engine that out lives the converter?


  5. #20
    drewsdeville is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    Even with todays spec'd oils, rounding cam lobes on flat tappet engines is a pretty rare occurance anyway. It's not like this is automatic death to all flat tappet engines. The N* may have been an exception, but most camshaft surfaces were sufficiently hardened where it seems it's difficult to damage them save for pouring sand on them or running them dry.

    There are still millions of 1980's and older flat tappets, most are high mileage, still running around on original flat tappet camshafts and lifters, with SM spec in the oil pan - and those engines have technically been running with outdated API spec for decades.

  6. #21
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    I'll agree that some of the older engines can probably survive on some of the newer oils.

    Yet, the thought of the "newer" oil not having sufficient anti-wear additives or reduced levels doesn't sound good.

    It's bad enough the pre 00 Northstars can scuff up the lifter buckets, ironically those same lifter buckets look like the ones used in my 2.3 high out put quad 4.

    They suffer from the same fate of scuffing the lifters sometimes.

  7. #22
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    Quote Originally Posted by 98eldo32v View Post
    Yet, the thought of the "newer" oil not having sufficient anti-wear additives or reduced levels doesn't sound good.
    It's not a "thought" - it's an absolute fact - for older flat-tappet engines. Look at Ranger's posted timetable for the decrease in ZDDP in starburst engine oils.

    Keep this thread in context - it refers to older, flat-tappet cammed engines, not today's roller cammed engines that were developed for consumer use in conjunction with the reduced oil additive packages. Dumping additives or additional ZDDP into your 2000+ Northstar accomplishes exactly nothing. (It may make you feel warm and fuzzy, however.)

    Don't take my word, or any other hearsay or off-the-wall opinion on this - go into the websites from oil manufacturers and packagers, both large and small, and do some studying. I have absolutely no doubt that you will find that, by and large, pre-2001 (???) flat tappet engines would be recommended to use an oil conforming to the older SJ or even SH specs - Read the oil bottles. It's still all there.

    If you'll study the sites of several engine builders, parts manufacturers, cam manufacturers, and other "hot rod" info sites you'll find that the people who do this sort of stuff for a living are very concerned with flat-tappet cam wear due to lowered oil additive packages - very.

    http://www.api.org/certifications/en...010_120210.pdf

    http://www.joegibbsdriven.com/

    Motor Oil Grades and Service Ratings

    http://www.amsoil.com/
    98eldo32v and 98eldo32v like this.

  8. #23
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    GMC/Chevy 350s are notorious for flat cams and cupped tappets even when run on older high ZDDP oils. In fact, around here it's hard to find one that has a valve train that doesn't sound like a thrashing machine.
    Don't mess with Binky Bear!


  9. #24
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    Sub it's not just the older engines that can start scuffing a lifter. I've diagnosed 3 and repaired 2 Vortec 5.3's with valvetrain ticks that keep getting worse as worn lifter rollers and cam jounals. All start with cylinder 7. Something changed in the oil gallerys when they incorporated the displacement on demand into the block. I'd bet if the oil still had enough zinc and phosphorus it wouldn't be happening. Worse part is to change the lifters the heads have to come off of an LS.

    Vernon

  10. #25
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Submariner409 View Post
    It's not a "thought" - it's an absolute fact - for older flat-tappet engines. Look at Ranger's posted timetable for the decrease in ZDDP in starburst engine oils.

    Keep this thread in context - it refers to older, flat-tappet cammed engines, not today's roller cammed engines that were developed for consumer use in conjunction with the reduced oil additive packages. Dumping additives or additional ZDDP into your 2000+ Northstar accomplishes exactly nothing. (It may make you feel warm and fuzzy, however.)

    Don't take my word, or any other hearsay or off-the-wall opinion on this - go into the websites from oil manufacturers and packagers, both large and small, and do some studying. I have absolutely no doubt that you will find that, by and large, pre-2001 (???) flat tappet engines would be recommended to use an oil conforming to the older SJ or even SH specs - Read the oil bottles. It's still all there.

    If you'll study the sites of several engine builders, parts manufacturers, cam manufacturers, and other "hot rod" info sites you'll find that the people who do this sort of stuff for a living are very concerned with flat-tappet cam wear due to lowered oil additive packages - very.

    http://www.api.org/certifications/en...010_120210.pdf

    http://www.joegibbsdriven.com/

    Motor Oil Grades and Service Ratings

    http://www.amsoil.com/
    So,

    Is it safe to say that, we're paying more for less protection of our engines UNLESS we have a roller cam motor? IF that is the case, all those flat tappet cam motors now have to look for specific oils that were once the standard for motor oils just to keep their engines running right without issues?

    Sounds like another deceptive way to get rid of your older car, without you knowing it, unless you're paying attention to what's really going on around here.

    The cash for clunkers concept has me so baffled it unbelieveable. I go to the junk yards and find better cars in better shape than the ones people are privately selling. What a joke.

  11. #26
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    The answer to your rhetorical question "Is it safe to say ........" is already in the third paragraph of my Post #22.

    ----------

    Remember: Just because this is 2012.8 and things advance and change does not mean that your 1996 engine has advanced and changed: it still needs the coolant and lubrication specs that were in effect when the engine was built.

    BUT, do you think the car dealerships and Oil Doodles are going to stock drums of SH, SJ, SL, SM, and SN motor oils to conform to your engine's needs ??? Hah !!! Fat chance. If it's oily, pour it in.

    Every oil blog and forum laments the changes in oil formulations - but few are willing to go the extra mile to tell you that your particular needed oil is still out there and how to find it. (and, when someone tries to advise where, when, and how to insure that a particular engine gets what it needs, they are branded as rabble rousers and witch doctors.)

  12. #27
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    Like Sub said, Advances have come with time (I'm just surprised it took this long I remember reading something about Bobby Allison gettin' caught with roller cams in his car in NASCAR in the '70s ).

    Oil manufactuers follow the trend of most of the American public (buying new cars every 3 years or so) and release appropriate motor oils for the given current engines.

    The rest of us, who have older vehicles, must shop accordingly (and typically this means buy high mileage oils or use Zinc additives).

    You hit the nail squarely on the head by saying that this may be a way to make us get rid of our older cars. If we're not paying attention, our cams will wear out, and we can either rebuild the top end or go the easy route and buy a new car. Is it deliberate? Probably not. But it does capatilize on the fact that most people aren't that concerned with car maintenance.

  13. #28
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadillacLuke24 View Post
    Oil manufacturers follow the trend of most of the American public (buying new cars every 3 years or so) and release appropriate motor oils for the given current engines.
    There's a hitch to that ^^^ generalization....... In large part the EPA drives oil additive formulation, the blenders comply, and the engine designers turn their hat around and come up with metals and mechanical marvels that will run with the reduced anti-scuff and anti-wear packages handed down by Big Brother. To compound the problem, mandated catalytic converter warranty periods (longer) dictated reduced phosphorus in oils, so that's a glitch.

    (Same as your dishwasher detergent doesn't clean as well as it used to: Phosphorus has been eliminated in consumer detergents by the EPA. TSP - TriSodium Phosphate - is being phased off hardware store shelves as a general contractor cleaner for the same EPA reasons. Do some Google homework. Your giant government bureaucracy is concerned for your health and well-being [as well as its own life - send money])

  14. #29
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    having a '99 I've been adding zddp to bring the levels up to what they were in 1996. I may have contributed to some of these "oil wars" at some point. Many thought I was crying wolf, lol. There are a couple of products that add zddp to bring 5 quarts of oil to the SH level. I add one of these at each oil change (and so it may be a little less bc of the 7.5qt capacity of our N*). Another option is having oil changes at shorter intervals, as the zddp wears over time, preventing metal-to-metal contact. maeng9981's 99 Deville's tappets and cam lobes look good, but it has had religulous oil changes every 3K miles.

    I once called STP to find out how much ZDDP its additive has, and they would not reveal the amount. I suspect it doesn't have that much.

    I had been using Rotella for years since it was suggested for the older engines by the guy who left. I read about the ZDDP depletion on HotRod magazine. I have also added the GM engine break-in and assembly lube, but it was more expensive. The only issue with the newer diesel oils like Rotella are all the detergents to prevent soot build-up. They may "wash" the ZDDP plating off the metal parts so it's a catch 22.

  15. #30
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    Re: STP High mileage oil additive.

    Take a look at either the JoeGibbsDriven or the AMSOIL sites for oil formulations, conventional or synthetic, that are equal to the older SH - SJ specification.

    Pennzoil markets a conventional named "LongLife" - it is a HD oil, plenty of ZDDP, and comes in 10W-30 and 15W-40 viscosities. I run the 15W-40 in marine gasoline and diesel engines and it's clean, tough stuff.

    Several U.S. oil companies sell a synthetic blended to "Euro" specs - it carries a decent ZDDP load and comes in 5W-30, 5W-40, and 10W-30 viscosities.

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