Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job - Page 7
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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; You better replace that battery before continuing chasing codes - low voltage makes all sorts of wacky things happen to ...
  1. #91
    95STS is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    You better replace that battery before continuing chasing codes - low voltage makes all sorts of wacky things happen to the electronics throwing codes left and right.

  2. #92
    Manic Mechanic is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    Replaced the Cam sensor, didn't fix the problem. Wires were intact, but I didn't dive into the harness too far. Maybe its time to either shoot wires for continuity or look for something else to cause this problem.
    >Check for power and ground on the two wires with key on.

    I just remembered that I didn't know which fuel lines to reconnect a week ago, so is it possible they are reversed at the intake rail and this is causing the hard start?
    >I think not, I can't recall any engine in the last 20+ years where the fuel lines were the same size, return is always smaller therefore you can't switch them.


    A few more current codes cropped up:
    1. P0141= If the ECM determines (based on coolant temp) that too much time elapsed before the oxygen sensor began operating properly, it will set P0141
    2. Seems odd that the O2 sensors started to malfunction all of a sudden as soon as I plugged in the coolant sensor.
    >read these until you're no longer confused as to the timing of the code being set.

    P0155= 02 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 2 Sensor 1)
    P0135= O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1, Sensor 1)
    >O2's don't start working right until they reach operation temperature, the heater circuits are non-functional right now, another reason for the P0141. Check the underhood fuse box at OXYSEN1 and OXYSEN2 first. There should be VBAT on one of the four vehicle harness wires and ground on another, they will be the two that are both black on the O2 sensor wiring (not the vehicle harness the sensor wires). Also the two black sensors wires should ohm out around 12-16 ohm on the two black wires. If you don't have power or ground find out why, if the sensors are shorted or open they are bad.

    When I clear all PCM codes with the engine running the engine dies, and its hard to start again.
    > This is because it's already determined the firing order by trial and error when cranking due to the missing Camshaft sensor signal. This is exacly why the long crank/hard start, it tries every firing order two at a time until the engine runs and remembers for that run cycle only. When you clear the code it no longer knows where the crank is and therefore dies so you can start the learning process over again by cranking while it tries the possibilitys again.

    Didn't have a problem with them before the project began. Perhaps they got contaminated with the repair processes? I didn't remove them.
    > should be figured out by now.

    I still haven't tried another car battery yet. Funds are low right now. Battery reads 12.2 before cranking, then I think 11.5 after it gets started, now remember it has to crank for a maybe 10 or so seconds before it starts due to the cam error. Battery is 5 years old this month.
    >it's fine, see above as to why you have to crank so long.

    I had removed the sway bar links from the front end so I could get the struts to install easier. Wanted to buy new ones but again the money issue. I drove the car about 3 miles home without them installed, and the ride was real bumpy.
    >this seems to contradict the law of physics so it's probably due to something else, without a front sway bar your ride should be smoother due to completely independent front suspension, perhaps you mean it's bouncier?

    One more thing, there's no such thing as quick on a head gasket repair for this engine, wanted to say that from day one. I just started mine.

    Vernon

  3. #93
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    As soon as you can, you should get a new battery. 12.2 Volts before cranking is on the deathbed.

  4. #94
    89falcon is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    Quote Originally Posted by MRneatfreak- View Post
    Yeah checked the bypass plunger last night, it had plenty of tension on it.

    Gave up on the torque wrench and the shop owner (my friend) lightly zipped the crank bolt on with an impact. Started it and it instantly had oil pressure. Now if only we had thought about that last weekend.

    Now just letting it cook off the residual grease on the exhaust manifold's, and seeing what the temps are going to do...

    Air bag warning is annoying, it trumps all other readouts until you turn the key off. Tempted to plug the sir fuse back in to see if the bag pops, after I might have messed up the clock spring. Thoughts?

    Seems I forgot to hookup the coolant temp switch, can't readily see where the wire end is... Gonna let it cool so I can dig.

    Also the oil light was flickering almost like it had a bad connection, but there was no command to shut down the engine. pushed on the connector seems ok? Gonna change the oil and filter and see what happens. I got a new oil press switch should I just changed it too?
    Yeah...as Sub indicated, if you aren't TERRIFIED that you are about to shear the crank bolt when getting the 120 degrees....it ain't tight enough and you did it wrong......

  5. #95
    MRneatfreak- is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    Put a new battery in that I got from Advance Auto (had 25% off all batteries in stock), but it had a charge of 12.3v. Its sticker said it was new from 8/12 (last month), so I would have thought it would be ready to go? Anyway threw it on the charger while I found an errant ground wire by the tranny selector switch to bolt down.

    I also measured ground at the Cam sensor plug (wire side) which was good with the ignition off. Turned the key on and the ground disappeared, and the only voltage I measured was 2.5 millivolts on the other pin? I didn't want to fry the PCM by trying to measure volts with the key cranking so I didn't try that.

    Also the 02 sensor current codes went away.

    So still fighting the P0322.
    Thoughts?

  6. #96
    MRneatfreak- is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    Quote Originally Posted by 89falcon View Post
    Yeah...as Sub indicated, if you aren't TERRIFIED that you are about to shear the crank bolt when getting the 120 degrees....it ain't tight enough and you did it wrong......
    I did that procedure about 4 different times on this engine, was getting good at the 120 degrees, problem was it just wasn't tight enough. Maybe it was my dated torque wrench, or maybe cause I didn't lock down the flex plate, who knows.

    My friend said as a lesson he's learned as an ASE Master Tech, and Shop Manager/owner, is to always crank down the harmonic balancer on any motor, as you ain't gonna hurt anything.

  7. #97
    MRneatfreak- is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    Found this but no mention if I can measure a voltage or not. Maybe just shoot continuity from the IC to the cam sensor?

    Cam diagram.gif

    PCM added.gif

  8. #98
    MRneatfreak- is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    Nevermind just studied how the sensor works.., looks like everytime the cam sprocket passes by the magnet (cam sensor) it generates a small trickle of power which is sent to the ICM and then later on to the PCM. Now that I know where it goes I shoot the wires. But now the ICM is suspect cause that was removed to drop the cradle, and to remove the valve cover. Maybe something is just loose on the plate that the coils attach to.

    Any words of caution before I disconnect the PCM to shoot the wiring?

    *edit* Found these
    Cam trouble 1.gif

    Cam trouble 2.gif

  9. #99
    MRneatfreak- is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    I haven't gotten around to checking the wires yet, been tied up with a hard hot start and hot stalling on my daily driver (olds 350 rocket).

    But I was thinking about that cam sensor and how it operates. If it eventually learns the sequence of operation during the long cranks during starting, then why doesn't it just remember the new operation when it shuts down? When I first start it, it starts to run like normal then shuts off, then the long crank ensues which lasts about 10 seconds, at which point its fine till I shut it off (along with a current PCM code of course). If there was an intermittent open in a cam sensor wire, wouldn't the car quit running anyway?

  10. #100
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    Quote Originally Posted by MRneatfreak- View Post
    I haven't gotten around to checking the wires yet, been tied up with a hard hot start and hot stalling on my daily driver (olds 350 rocket).
    Check the carb float level - sounds like hot engine percolation. (Massive choke action)

  11. #101
    MRneatfreak- is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    Thx, Yeah tore the edlebrock apart cleaned, and blew it all out, doublechecked the float hang both directions, made minor changes. Ultimately the biggest change of all was going back to a 160 T-stat from a 195 degree. Really seemed to help. Engine runs about 25 degrees over whatever T-stat is in there. So 215 degrees is too hot for carb'ed gas. Gone round and round with it, covered in another thread on a different forum. But you're right the digital airfuel ratio meter was screaming off the charts lean when it was hot, before I tore apart the carb, now its actually adjustable, and hovers around 13-15 after warm-up, depending on the cruise attitude.

  12. #102
    Manic Mechanic is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    The cam sensor basically sets the crank to cams relationship during initial cranking and as long as the crankshaft sensors are operating properly it isn't necessary to continually reference this relationship to keep the firing order in sync. The PCM (or ignition module) actually keeps track of the crank based on the continuous feed of the crankshaft sensors and sense the number of pulses per revolution doesn't change the cam sensor is thereafter redundant. Your engine can start and run without a cam signal but not without a crank signal. But another thing the cam signal does is time the fuel injector firings so that they are spraying at the most advantageous time so the fuel is pulled into the cylinder as a vapor. Without a cam signal the fuel injectors (on most port fuel injected engines anyways) will be batch fired, meaning alternating four at a time. This does work but is not nearly as precise and efficient. If there was an intermittent open in the cam sensor you would just get a code and reduced efficiency any time it went non-functional. Depending on if it was working during cranking would determine how fast it would start. When you shut the ignition down the entire system is powered off but the crank is still turning to a stop, it doesn't instantly stop moving and lock into place just because it's no longer being actively pushed by combustion. Also the engine crank could always be turned while the ignition is off by hand or vehicle momentum in gear, esp. with a standard trans. So the PCM isn't keeping track of the crank when it's off. Therefore in absence of a new reference point during cranking to tell the PCM something along the lines of "At this point in the crankshafts 720 degrees of travel this is when cylinder #1 is at top dead center of the compression stroke. Therefore after 719 more degrees it will be there again" it won't know where the crank to valve relationship is. When it doesn't know it goes through a program made by smart engineers that have all day to figure out the fastest way to achieve this that fires cylinders in a certain order and monitors the crank speed, when it finds a strong acceleration the next cylinder is tried that would be behind the first, with continued success firing order is established and repeated every 720 degrees. Remember one crank rotation of 360 degrees will cycle the piston from top to bottom and back to top one time, 2 strokes by 1 down and 1 up. Since these are four stroke engines (intake, compression, power, exhaust, repeat). So 720 degrees of rotation will cycle one cylinder through all four strokes, down and up twice. This is a simple explanation and may not be exactly how it's done for every or any specific engine but it will give you an understanding of what's happening regardless.

    Your cam sensor is a magnetically tripped on/off switch. Voltage is supplied on one wire and when the metal bump on the cam gear passes next to the sensor the magnetic contact pulls the circuit together inside the sensor allowing the voltage to travel back through the other wire to the PCM but at that point only because as the bump passes it quickly opens again. For this circuit to work you need constant voltage to the sensor, usually 5 volts or less. Also you need a properly functioning sensor, one that is open when there's not a piece of metal against it (air gap) and closed when it's there, and able to switch between these two states cleanly and consistently. Then the signal return circuit to the ignition module or PCM must be good and the module or PCM receiving the voltage blips must be able to process them properly while supply a path to ground for them. Also the mechanical end of this particular signal generator must be in proper working order, if the cam gear behind the sensor doesn't have the metal bump on it as in wrong gear or broken off or it's too far away as in worn components, or anything similar the prevents the bump from passing the sensor at the correct time and at the correct clearance it obviously won't work either. A missing signal that can be inferred from other means is better than a good one that is coming at the wrong time which can't be changed.

    Check for voltage and ground at the sensor leads, if either is missing check the wires to and from, if those are good check voltage and grounds of the connected module (ignition or power train control) as it is supposed to be supplying those powers and grounds to the sensor. If everything checks good electronically then check the switching ability of the sensor itself using an ohm meter and waving a metal object passed it very close or a voltmeter back probed into the signal return wire with the engine cranking (running is too fast for voltmeter), if you have a scope you could view it in real time samples. If the switch part of the sensor works check the trigger for it itself. See if the cam gear behind the sensor is the correct one with the bump of metal for tripping the cam sensor and that the bump is there and passing the sensor close enough to trigger it without hitting it etc.

    If I remember right your 97 has coil packs and an ignition module that grounds to the valve cover with a spring (may be completely wrong and I don't feel like looking it all up, hey I know what my 01 has) and maybe even some little ground straps for the valve covers due to this. All of those ground components must be there and good for the smaller voltage signals to work along with the larger ones and electronic interference. Make sure your ignition is grounded. I was going to say before but forgot and you found it anyways, most of the codes and problems arising after major engine work are overlooked or missing grounds, esp. with DIY guys. You all do it a lot. Pro's like me learn quickly to note all grounds and affirm their reconnection and condition during reassembly or suffer problems after every job. This includes the battery to engine connections and body to engine and body to battery ground straps.

    Vernon

  13. #103
    MRneatfreak- is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Manic Mechanic View Post
    If I remember right your 97 has coil packs and an ignition module that grounds to the valve cover with a spring (may be completely wrong and I don't feel like looking it all up, hey I know what my 01 has) and maybe even some little ground straps for the valve covers due to this. All of those ground components must be there and good for the smaller voltage signals to work along with the larger ones and electronic interference. Make sure your ignition is grounded. I was going to say before but forgot and you found it anyways, most of the codes and problems arising after major engine work are overlooked or missing grounds, esp. with DIY guys. You all do it a lot. Pro's like me learn quickly to note all grounds and affirm their reconnection and condition during reassembly or suffer problems after every job. This includes the battery to engine connections and body to engine and body to battery ground straps.

    Vernon
    I didn't highlight all of it but Wow that was one hell of an explanation . Makes more sense now how the sensors work and why they don't save the information in the memory.

    I'll admit I like working on my old non-computerized car over the Deville, been putting it off for a reason . I shot wires at my day job everyday years ago, and have grown weary of it. Huge cannon plug connectors with 10-60 pins (upper case alphabet followed by lowercase alphabet counterclockwise, needless to say I got good at my ABC's ) in them on aircraft. You referenced a spring on the valve covers? Don't recall seeing a spring, only the coil base plate and a ground to it. The missing link? Hopefully once I finally dig in and commit, I'll be able to locate the problem. I need to hurry up, cause there is a local boneyard that has a 99 Deville that is pretty much complete already got the oil pump and the bushing off it and if I needed a coil plate spring it should have one.

    You guys are the best.

  14. #104
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    I don't recall any spring when I changed the plugs on my '97. I think it was grounded by the mounting bolts. See the diagram below.

    Be advised that there is a hidden mounting bolt on the backside of the ICM that requires the Braille method to remove and install.
    Attached Images

  15. #105
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    Re: Quick and Dirty 97 Deville HG Job

    The coil cassette ground spring started in 2000 - with the change to COP ignition. Some of the pre-2000 engines use a dedicated ICM-to-engine ground wire......... the black "where does this wire go" of engine rebuild forums.

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