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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; For one, Marine engines dont run at WOT as said... an example, boss owns a new 30 ft Carver mariner ...
  1. #46
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    Arrow Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    For one, Marine engines dont run at WOT as said... an example, boss owns a new 30 ft Carver mariner 350, full throttle on it was both the engines at 4,000 rpms.

    Our truck, Silverado 1500 w/Z71 (1998) is driven very lightly by mum and occasionally when I or someone else is in it, we have to floor it and man.. can you see the dust and griime flow out of that exhaust. Now its been needing a tune up and gets more of that carbon build up because the explosions arent as effectiant anymore. The catera, on the other hand; is driven quite hard but only because the engine like the Northstar was built to run hard. High-Rpms

  2. #47
    Anthony Cipriano is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    Quote Originally Posted by JefferyG
    For one, Marine engines dont run at WOT as said... an example, boss owns a new 30 ft Carver mariner 350, full throttle on it was both the engines at 4,000 rpms.

    What do you think running at full throttle at 4000rpm? It's operating at Wide Open Throttle. Marine engines run at full throttle most all the time. That or they idle while the owner trolls. Anyone who has spent any time in a boat has held the throttle wide open for long periods of time. Especially any sort of sport boat. Marine engines are run the hardest of most any engines on the planet. Even to keep a large boat on plane the engines are deep into the throttle. Very deep. Put a vacuum gauge on a marine engine and you will see that they run at zero vacuum a lot. Zero vacuum is unthrottled and the only difference between that and true WOT is theoretical. Practically it is exactly the same thing. Boat engines are just usually rated for a specific power at a lower RPM than the equivalent engine in a car. With the propping and gearing in the boat the operating RPM can be kept lower to make the engines live longer even though they are at WOT a great deal of the time.

    The Northstar engine was marinized for MasterCraft ski boats several years ago. It was exactly the same motor as was installed in cars. It was also propped and geared to run 6000rpm at full throttle in the boat - which it does frequently.

  3. #48
    Anthony Cipriano is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence
    It would be interesting to see. Never heard of it from an auto manufacturer. But Mercury Marine does it, at least used to at their privately owned Lake X in FL. They ran outboards non stop, some models literally ran for years.

    All automotive manufacturers do limit endurance testing of the cars and the engines. Just no one runs a bunch of different cars WOT on a track to see which blows up the first. All the engine durability testing takes place on an engine dyno. As an example, the Northstar engine is validated on a test on an engine dyno where the engine is run at full throttle, 6000rpm, making 300hp for 300 hours continously. The engine is shut down occasionally for checks and oil changes and such but when it's running it's full throttle at 6000 flat out. And it lasts 300 hours. In 300 hours at 6000rpm in a car that would be about 150 miles an hour and the car could go 50,000 miles. Twice around the world. It would be impossible, practically speaking, to accomplish this on a track so vehcile testing to the point that the engine would fail would be pointless. You would run out of tires and gas and such.

    Dock testing by the marine manufacturers is very common. Everyone does that. GM Powertrain is a major supplier of marine engines and tests the same way but on a dyno. The main reason to "dock test" (tie it to the dock and leave it on wide open) is to test the cooling sytems in the boat and such. The engine testing on a dyno ensures that the engine will take it.

  4. #49
    gman2153 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    I find the fact that you blame a cop for playing games when he nails you for double the speed limit quite amuzing... I bet the judge thought so also.

  5. #50
    c_a_s_2 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    In my opinion, what's more sensible than occasionally rodding your caddy is to keep the oil and filters and plugs NEW, AND only place the shifter in fourth gear when you want to do extended cruising -- over 55. That prevents the car from loping along at low rpm (in fourth) in town, which contributes to carbonizing the intake, cyinders, and plugs !!!! I found quite a performance (and mileage) boost in new platinum plugs, (car only has 42k on it) but I just bought thew eldo from a little old lady. SO --- run you plugs for 100k if you want to, but I recommend you instead replace then about every 50k -- with the best plugs you can get (Like Bosch Quad Platinums) Style on, Ride On.
    cs

  6. #51
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    Quote Originally Posted by elwesso
    ..........................Sure, some can endure more WOT than others, but there is no engine (that i know of) that is specifically designed to be at WOT all the time. End of story.
    There are a lot of engines designed to run continously at WOT... Every engine is designed with a certain duty cycle in mind. Engines that power heavy trucks run wide open at peak power all the time. They are designed to do that and can do it for thousands of hours. Dedicated marine engines are designed for a "rated" power and can run that way for thousands of hours. Even simple engines like a 5hp Briggs and Stratton on a portable generator runs wide open all the time as long as the generator is loaded. It is designed to run that way.

    A diesel engine in a commercial 18 wheeler can run at WOT maximum power for millions of miles. It was designed for that kind of constant power output. It runs at a relatively low RPM (below 1800rpm all the time) to keep the inertia loads low and makes the power/torque with compression, displacement and a lot of turbo boost and very very robust internal parts - allowed due to the low RPM it operates at.

    A passenger car engine is at the other end of the spectrum. It will idle through life almost never running at full throttle. It will last hundreds of thousands of miles running at part load. It is designed to make a lot more power to accelerate and pull loads on an intermittant basis. Generally, an automotive engine will live at full load, full throttle for several hundred hours - not the thousands and thousands of hours that a marine or truck or aircraft engine might see under these conditions. It all depends on the duty cycle of the engine and what it was designed for.

    You run your weed eater engine or leaf blower engine at WOT for extended periods - those were made for that. They are relatively low specific output engines for that very purpose - to live at a continous WOT duty cycle.

    Many engines are rated at different power levels based on the duty cycle that they must endure. Gas truck engines are commonly rated at a number like 350hp in a light duty truck (an 8.1 GM gas engine in a suburban or pickup) or that same exact engine (same internal parts) would be rated at 280hp in a heavy duty truck that would tow 16000 pounds all the time. Or haul rocks out of the quarry in low gear and full throttle all the time. That same engine might be rated at 220 in a Kodiack truck that tows semi trailers short distances. But at full throttle all the time to keep them rolling. The engine is derated to be able to perform at it's rated power (WOT for that application) for thousands of hours that would be required instead of the hundreds of hours that it might see at WOT in the light duty pickup truck. The key to understanding is that there are many different duty cycles and each engine is designed, optimized and rated for that application. Many of the heavy duty engines spend all their lives at full throttle both gas and diesel varieties.

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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    OK Anthony, my Dad did your expressway trick to help break-in the rings, etc. and so far so good. No problems. The DTS only has 500 miles on it so I don't suppose it has to be done too often. He has always babied his cars engines. I still would like to know how often carbon build-up might become a problem, roughly. Say every 5,000 miles? 10,000 miles? It might be good to know so he could do this again to avoid carbon buildup with the smaller ports, etc.

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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph
    OK Anthony, my Dad did your expressway trick to help break-in the rings, etc. and so far so good. No problems. The DTS only has 500 miles on it so I don't suppose it has to be done too often. He has always babied his cars engines. I still would like to know how often carbon build-up might become a problem, roughly. Say every 5,000 miles? 10,000 miles? It might be good to know so he could do this again to avoid carbon buildup with the smaller ports, etc.

    If it were my car I would take every opportunity to do a WOT blast to keep the carbon cleaned out. Not that you have to go out of your way to do this - just merging onto the expressway is an excellent opportunity to give it a shot of WOT. At least once per week I would recommend to keep the combustion chambers clean and the exhaust cleaned out of particulates.

  9. #54
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    I try not to post too much but as an old hotrodder and engine builder, I gotta say that my 95sls gets wailed on ALL the time, and it has over 142k miles. I take care of it and I 'drive it like I stole it'.

    If ya worry about honkin a Northstar...(Yes they keep ya busy at the wheel), just buy a V6malibu.

    Don't blame yer ride...look in the mirror......(Wat we said in 1955)

    ljk age 63

  10. #55
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    What GAS-BURNING engines do you know that are run at WOT constantly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    Unfortunately,
    Many (if not all) the tests that engineers run on test engines are NOT directly applicable to production engines run on the street.
    As for engines run at WOT, Many aircraft engines are run at a NEAR full-throttle for the following reasons:
    1. Better fuel efficiency
    2. Less wear on the engine
    3. More effective use of the engine's power
    Aircraft engines that are run this way are are usually in the more expensive aircraft because in order to do it, you must have a variable-pitch prop.
    Marine engines are NOT run at WOT. They ARE generally run at a relatively high throttle angle due to the constant load produced by the water. True, once you get the craft on plane, it is easier to maintain speed but overall there is a large load placed on the engine constantly. Oh, and the different materials used in the engines (brass, bronze, etc.) are used because they are non-sparking, and less likely to corrode, not because they are more durable.
    I have to bring this one out of the archives just to add my $.02 with regards to aircraft engines.
    I'll keep it very simple. A safe takeoff requires that the aircraft achieve as much altitude and airspeed in the shortest amount of time possible. Basically you want to attain enough altitude and airspeed that if you experience a loss of power you would be able to turn back and glide to the airfield that you just departed. With that concept in mind it's easy to understand why aircraft engines are run at 100% power on each and every take-off. This is the safest way to operate and therefore it is also the manufacturers recommendation.

    If you look at a typical Cessna 172 used for flight training at any relatively busy trainig facility you could expect to see a airplane that endures upwards of 30 practice takeoffs and landings on any given day. A typical climbout in a 172 would be about 4-6 minutes before the throttle is cut to a 65-80% power, cruise setting. Using those figures you'd be looking at a plane that runs 3 full hours per day at 100% power....when was the last time you did that in your Caddy??

    In actuality, it's an apples to oranges comparison because aircraft engines are subject to MANDATORY maintainence on a routine basis as well as scheduled overhauls (rebuilds) each 2000 hours or so. This sort of maintainence is a good idea when your wheels are frequently 5000 ft off the ground and you spend 3hrs a day at max power.

  11. #56
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    I think it's not really a problem, hot rodders with custom PCMs and what not are certainly running these things hard...exception being the trailer queens :P

    There's a post on this forum somewhere that discusses the stock northstar can run higher 6500, could get to 7000 or 8000 no problem.

    I think that is shown well in the new RWD Northstars that redline runs from 6500-7000 rpms.

    Lets not forget Mark and his turbo STS. It certainly may not last as long as a non-blown but that will get him some excitement and shows that the northstar can take a beating, and so can the trans considering he is running more power threw than what we can.

    I think it all goes back to general maintenance. If you going to pushing this thing hard, don't go 100,000 miles between tranny fluid changes. My 98 deville has had its share of heavy throttle applications, and has 95,000 miles on it, it's probibly overdue for a tranny fluid change, so in the next couple weeks I'm going to go ahead and do that.

  12. #57
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    I believe the Northstar has a small amount of untapped potential. Because it can run to near 8000 rpms without too much of a problem, and a fellow member has sc'ed their Seville, undoubtly this engine is stronger than utilized.

    With some modifications, this same engine is now making 330 hp and is being supercharged in the STS-V and XLR-V (well slightly different in the XLR-V).

  13. #58
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    Wow talk about a necropost (old thread being brought back up again.) Anyway if you worry about the trans put a big aftermarket trans cooler on it. Heat buildup in the fluid is the biggest reason for trans failures.

  14. #59
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    ^^ Yeah at old thread!

    For a Northstar/4T80-E is there a special kind of trans cooler, or does one size fit all cars?

  15. #60
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    Re: Important to PUSH the Northstar once a week?

    There's not really a special cooler... you'd have to measure the space you want to put it and find a unit that's the right size. I know on Mark VIIIs the cooler from newer (02+ or something like that) powerstroke diesels will fit well.

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