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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, 99 STS Project in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Ok, I'll take some pictures. It'll be later on this evening though. I have to go attend my other hobby ...
  1. #31
    98eldo32v's Avatar
    98eldo32v is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Ok, I'll take some pictures. It'll be later on this evening though. I have to go attend my other hobby in a bit.........bowling.

  2. #32
    Pete1996 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Nice work Joe!
    Do you plan to replace the rings or just clean everything up?
    What about the top ridge in the bore, shouldn't that be removed?

  3. #33
    JoeTahoe is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    rings, rod and main bearings. Complete reseal and studs. also TTC solinoid and converter seal. All new valve seals. Two diferant cams and lifters. New water pump and thermostat. I just cant wait til it is done been driving a Tahoe for last 8 yrs its nice but not cadillac nice. And there is no real ridge just a little carbon buid up so no ridge reamer.

  4. #34
    Submariner409's Avatar
    Submariner409 is offline If it won't run, chrome it
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete1996 View Post
    What about the top ridge in the bore
    Post #16. Northstars do not normally experience cylinder bore wear = ridge.

    The only indication of cylinder block repair addressed in the GM Manual is something like "If a cylinder is damaged, replace the block." I believe there are no GM oversized pistons, rings or even crank/rod bearings.

  5. #35
    mtflight's Avatar
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Very nice setup and what a great job you're doing. The cam wear is due to the newer oils having less ZDDP (zinc) additive. Newer 00+ with roller cam followers aren't prone to this wear type. You could add ZDDP at each oil change to prevent it from happening again, faster, as the newer oils will have even less zinc.

  6. #36
    98eldo32v's Avatar
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Quote Originally Posted by mtflight View Post
    Very nice setup and what a great job you're doing. The cam wear is due to the newer oils having less ZDDP (zinc) additive. Newer 00+ with roller cam followers aren't prone to this wear type. You could add ZDDP at each oil change to prevent it from happening again, faster, as the newer oils will have even less zinc.
    So, basically you're stating that the newer oils have LESS wear proctection.

    So, what does that mean for folks that have older vehicles? We can only get oil that is going to accelerate the engine wear or we have to go out and get a "newer" vehicle.

    This is great. Sounds like another way to get rid of older vehicles or pay more to try to maintain an older vehicle when in reality it should be getting cheaper to own an older car....

  7. #37
    Submariner409's Avatar
    Submariner409 is offline If it won't run, chrome it
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Quote Originally Posted by 98eldo32v View Post
    So, basically you're stating that the newer oils have LESS wear protection.
    It's a fact. The SL and SM oils have significantly lowered ZDDP levels which is detrimental to flat tappet valve lifter type engines. Those oils aren't kind to cam and distributor drive gears, either.

    Post #24

  8. #38
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Quote Originally Posted by 98eldo32v View Post
    So, basically you're stating that the newer oils have LESS wear proctection.

    So, what does that mean for folks that have older vehicles? We can only get oil that is going to accelerate the engine wear or we have to go out and get a "newer" vehicle.

    This is great. Sounds like another way to get rid of older vehicles or pay more to try to maintain an older vehicle when in reality it should be getting cheaper to own an older car....
    From what I understand, the lower ZDDP levels are due to manufacturers response to EPA regulation on cat converters. The EPA now demands ridiculously long cat converter life (over 150,000 miles or something?). All engines consume SOME oil, even if it's not detectable on the dipstick. That said, engines running oils high in zinc will reduce cat converter efficiency over time.

  9. #39
    98eldo32v's Avatar
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Quote Originally Posted by submariner409 View Post
    it's a fact. The sl and sm oils have significantly lowered zddp levels which is detrimental to flat tappet valve lifter type engines. Those oils aren't kind to cam and distributor drive gears, either.

    Post #24
    Hear that folks. If you've got a distributor and a flat tappet cam, you're setting yourself(your car for that matter) for failure using the "newer" hi- tech oil......

    When does the madness stop........

  10. #40
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Guys,

    I took those pictures of the studs, but I have to resize them. I guess they are too big. They'll be up soon

  11. #41
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    A few of us with the 93-99 northstar were using Diesel oils as they have a lot more ZDDP but the latest ones are also reduced. STP makes an oil additive that claims to have the most ZDDP than the competition. Or you could just get a racing oil $$ or add the GM prelube used to assemble engines.

    Here's a HotRod Magazine article on the flat tappet cam woes http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ech/index.html

    "Modern heavy-duty truck diesel oils with lots of ZDDP additives will bemarked "CI-4" or "CI-4 Plus." They also easily pass the API Service SLgasoline engine performance test (but due to the high ZDDP content, notthe SL chemical composition specs). Such truck oils are an economical and effective solution for flat-tappet longevity"

    borrowed from Hotrod Mag article above.

  12. #42
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Well, I run the cheapest oil I can in my cars (typically Farm and Fleet brand). Most of my 4.X's have been roller cam variants, like my current '90. But, when I pulled the distributor to do intake gaskets at 170k miles, the distributor gear looked like new.

    I also have one 195k mile '89 4.5 in the family, which is a flat tappet engine. Runs like new, good on power, even after years of this new-fangled oil.

    There are also plenty of other high mileage flat tappet engines that aren't rounding cams and wearing out other components. There's more to the equation than just oil. Design attributes like hardness of components, geometry, and loading can change a lot.

    I wouldn't say that us flat tappet/distributor guys are setting ourselves up for failure... If the aforementioned 195k 4.5 blew up tomorrow, I'd be happy with the length of service it gave without so much as the valve covers being removed (though the gaskets leak heavily at this point ).

  13. #43
    97EldoCoupe is offline U.S. Patent #8,740,532 - www.studkit.com
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    Passing time until tomorrow morning. Hope nobody minds if I chime in.

    Any time I pull the pistons out I always hone the cylinders using a flex hone. Don't get aggressive, the objective is to remove the glaze and leave a finish that will hold oil- not to remove material from the cylinder wall. Duplicate the factory crosshatching as close as possible, Control your drill speed very carefully. I have had excellent results with this. Check the bores for taper and out of round, but if you see the factory honing marks the chance of taper and out of round is not too likely.

    Joe you can expect the parts to complete that engine in a few days. Do as much as you can while you're waiting with the cleaning and soforth, I'm sure you already have and are just waiting for the studs and seals.

    I tore my cammed engine down out of my '98 STS. Rings are free, no carbon at all on the pistons and valves. 25,000 miles since I did the HG's on that one. WOT fun pays off.

  14. #44
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    My '97 ETC engine has flat tappets - I run Chevron or Walmart or whatever is cheap conventional oil - I'm not too worried about it - it's an old car with 166K on the clock. My 2005 Lincoln LS with 53K miles has a 3.0 L V-6 DOHC engine, also with flat tappets - I have always run Mobil 1 - now I'm wondering...should I be concerned? I found this stuff at Big Lots for $2.50 per quart

    http://cornerstoneproducts.ca/online...products_id=63

    It list ZDDP as the main ingredient. I added a quart with the last oil change for the Eldo - figured what the hell - costs about the same as oil. Now I'm thinking...maybe I should add it to the Lincoln too?

  15. #45
    JoeTahoe is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 99 STS Project

    on the 01 ESC i did rings and the same rods and mains that only had 70000miles and the cross hatch looked almost identical as my 99 with 130000miles on it. I did use the Flex hone after talking to Jake and the owners say it still has not used any oil but they do not drive it much (there baby) i do know that it had over 1500 miles on it. Break in and such i havent seen it since september. Also i did and i am only going to use gm rings in any northstar after chatting with some members here. Jake no problem as i still havent ordered the rods, mains and exhaust valves and like you said there is alot of clean up too do. Tomorrow its supposed to be a high of 10 here and we will be going to pick and pull to see if i can find two exhaust cams and lifters so my own lifters will be ticking. I always have had chevrolet, cars and trucks. I just can not believe how deferant the caddys are built just the detail, fit and finish, every thing about the car and it is 12yrs old. Thanks for all the input and support from all on this forum and Jake I would have never ever worked on a nortstar or bought one with out YOU. I will keep taking pics as i go. Thanks to all, Joe

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