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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, Why NOT to use time serts - in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Another failed time sert job. 99 STS in my shop for repair. Or rather, re-repair. Timeserts are short, they pull ...
  1. #1
    97EldoCoupe is offline U.S. Patent #8,740,532 - www.studkit.com
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    Why NOT to use time serts -

    Another failed time sert job. 99 STS in my shop for repair. Or rather, re-repair.

    Timeserts are short, they pull out, and the threads are again way TOO FINE.

    Only a few of the bolts held torque. Some turned out by hand. This one, pics below, the time sert came up with the bolt and the bolt had to be cut in half to remove it from the head. Some aluminum thread is still attatched to the outside of the insert.

    I see this all the time. Just thought I would let people know so that if they go through all the work in doing the HG's, whether you're a repair shop or an individual, this is the likely end-result if inserts like this are used. It's pure luck if they last and the bolts hold torque with these.







    These pics were taken with my iPhone so they're not the best of quality. My apologies. I will be posting better pics as soon as I can.

    I seriously advise using the studs I designed and sell to do a HG job because the studs have a success rate of 100% with holding correct clamping pressure and it's a one piece repair (with the exception of the nuts on top).

    Just what ever you do, what ever repair system you decide to go with, avoid these at all cost and heli - coils even more so.

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    tateos's Avatar
    tateos is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    Yeah - I used Norms, so I didn't realize how short and fine threaded those Timeserts are. Of course, in the future, I would use your studs. Timesert success rate seem to be hit or miss - it probably depends on the quality of the block aluminum, and the skill and practices of the installer. In my book, Norm's is good, but your's is better, and no one ever wants to do this thing twice!

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    97EldoCoupe is offline U.S. Patent #8,740,532 - www.studkit.com
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    Thanks Tateos - the problem is that it's no better than a band-aid repair. Like you said- the quality of the aluminum- the depth and coarseness of the thread.... I just don't want to see these things fail when people get through doing them. Just another excuse to call a Northstar junk, which it is very far from.

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    ryannel2003 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    I had my car timeserted at 54k miles and now nearly 30k miles later it's still holding well after many a WOT. Only time the temp gauge moves is in heavy stop and go traffic. If my car did ever fail again, Jake would be the first person I'd take my car to.

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    97EldoCoupe is offline U.S. Patent #8,740,532 - www.studkit.com
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    Thanks Ryannel! The success rate of time-serts will be a bit higher on the 2000+ blocks because in 2000+ models the blocks have less porosity. I would never trust inserts though. Glad to hear you're one of the lucky ones where the inserts have held up!

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    97EldoCoupe is offline U.S. Patent #8,740,532 - www.studkit.com
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    I did a '00 STS from Ohio not long ago that had one side time serted once and the other side of the block time serted twice. Both sides had failed again.

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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    About 2 years ago I was really lusting over a Black/Tan '99 STS with 75k miles. My god I can still remember that car like it was yesterday. Cleaned up it looked absolutely stunning! I came really close to buying it but my dealer wanted too much money so I waited around until my STS came around. Even though I like the Black/Tan color combo better than my Silver/Grey, I'm really glad I ended up with my 2000. It was traded needing alot of work, and on top of the timeserts they did a reseal of the motor, new water pump and pump housing, new motor mount, etc. The 2000+ is a much more reliable motor from what I've seen around my shop.

    Mine's been a really good car compared to what I've seen out there. I'm getting one of my actuators repaired now even though it hadn't started throwing a code yet (I'm really OCD about things like that ) and that's the first time since I've had the car I needed to shell out money for something unexpected (besides the crankshaft sensors of course). With a new taillight and some PDR work, she'll be looking like new real soon.

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    olsonscottm is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    Even more proof that I did the right thing studding my block (not that I needed any more proof).

    8,000 miles and going strong!

    Thanks, Jake!

    Scott
    1998 Deville
    Palmer, AK

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    dkong is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    testing...

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    jeffrsmith is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    Jake, I wish your studs would have been available when I did mine.

    I had read several not so good reviews of timeserts so I went with Norms. I think that I made a wise choice considering what was available at the time. I will not knock Norm's because I believe he had a product that was far superior to the "normally recommended repair." Having said this, if your studs were available when I did my repair I would have gone with them. If my Norm's repair fails I will switch to studs.

    As many have said here before, thank you for bringing a reliable repair solution to the market for our cars.

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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffrsmith View Post
    If my Norm's repair fails I will switch to studs.
    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong....

    Norm's inserts and Jake's studs use the same thread pitch and hole size in the block. Effectively having the same gripping power in the soft aluminum block. If Norm's inserts were ever to pull out... Jake's studs would not be an option... it would be time to look for another block.

    Timeserts use a smaller hole with fine threads if they pull out you can always go with either Norm's or Jake's due to the larger hole and course thread pitch that is required for both.

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    jeffrsmith is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    Maybe I was/am wrong but Jakes studs have a much longer threaded area than Norm's inserts. If Norm's fail they will not take out all of the threads in the block they should only cause problems with the bottom 1" - 1 1/4" threads in the hole. If you were able to get the inserts out and run a tap down to clean things up, why wouldn't you be able to put Jake's studs in? - you would still have the rest of the threads, up to the top edge of the deck for the studs to grip.

    Jake - would your studs still be an option if Norm's were to pull?

    I am not an engineer or a mechanic by trade, just my thoughts.

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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    I've never heard of Norm's pulling, but if ANY insert pull, you MUST drill out the threads and retap with a larger size. Doing what you suggest will will only lead to a failure, probably when torquing the head. There would not be enough threads to hold. The first improvement GM made in 2000 to elevate the head gasket problem was to lengthen the head bolts. The pitch was changed in '04.

  15. #14
    stoveguyy is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    96 sts. timeserts done 2yrs ago. 10k miles. daily driver. woohoo.

  16. #15
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    Re: Why NOT to use time serts -

    I have almost 12 months and 15k miles on my timesert job, with no issues so far. I believe that with timeserts, norms, anything, the key is that the block has to be good. Mine had shiny shavings all the time I was drilling it. I heard of people getting black dust, that means the block is unrepairable.

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