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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, Cadillac Engineers please help us! in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; This again is exactly the problem. It's going to take lots of time and money in R&D to get it ...
  1. #16
    codewize's Avatar
    codewize is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    This again is exactly the problem. It's going to take lots of time and money in R&D to get it done and done right. By the time it is done there will be even less of a market. It'll wont ever be worth it to the people involved.

    Trust me, I'm not a hater. I'd love to be able to buy a tune that actually gave me something but realistically I just don't see it happening any time soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedingpenguin View Post
    Obviously each car is different, and while there's a much bigger market for tuned Camaros and Firebirds, doesn't mean there's no market for Northstar performance tunes. I could rattle off a couple of people who I know for sure would be willing to pay for that, and that's just people I know who happen to own Northstar Cadillacs, I'm not part of any Cadillac club or group or whatever.
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  2. #17
    Ranger's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    Especially not with help from GM.

  3. #18
    tateos's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    Quote Originally Posted by codewize View Post
    Very well said.



    Now, to answer some other questions, at least the way I see it. There are so many and I do mean many attributes to monitoring and controlling the N* system it would be insane to think we could engineer a better program than GM. Over all they gave us more than 1 HP per CI in a highly drivable and reliable engine. Not to mention it's completely smooth and totally silent when running. That's a huge accomplishment in itself.

    I have seen, and heard of things that most would feel are insane when it comes to sensors and such. Like who would think there's a maximum increase in RMP per second setting. Yeah, stuff like that, which most of us would never in a million years think about. So what's happened over time is we tune the things we know as hot rodders, like fuel trim, increase airflow, etc. But GM was one or several steps ahead of us in protecting the engine and drivetrain from self destruction.

    There's way to much time and effort involved in tuning such a system for such a small audience. I'm afraid to say that I don't think it will ever happen. I don't think you'll ever see a real tuned N* in a street car.
    I tend to agree with codewise. I know even the 6 cylinder DI CTS has more than 300 HP, and I like speed and power too, but with gas prices what they are, and where they are headed, 300 smooth, reliable, quiet HP on tap for me when I need it, in a 4,000 pound luxury car seems to be enough for me (and probably most other Cadillac owners). There are plenty of cars out there that are capable of being faster, stock, than a Northstar Cadillac could ever be, so why even bother? For new cars, I'm thinking about some of the Mercedes AMG cars, and similar cars from other European manufacturers, and also the high performance Japanese cars like the Subarus and Mitusbishi's and Lexuses. Also, the highest performance Challengers and Mustangs and Camaros will blow away anything I believe a Northstar equipped Cadillac is capable of.

  4. #19
    97EldoCoupe is offline U.S. Patent #8,740,532 - www.studkit.com
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    Well I must admit I've had better ideas but I still believe that GM will deliver what the customers want. What about the rough idle on early 2000 models that customers complained about? There was a service bulletin about this, and a new tune was developed to accompany the new cams that were installed.

    Since I don't have anyone's attention at GM, locking out first gear when t/c is commanded off was one of the dumbest thing any car company could do. Locking out 1st is a traction control in itself. You can't lose traction in 2nd. Well, rarely. I've spoken to the former Chief Engineer of the Northstar but I never went into detail about tunes and such. Doing so would probably have resulted in a "click".

    Approaching GM takes more than one person and a bunch of money. I can see that I'd be on my own with that so forget it.

    There has to be an answer. A solution.

    Has AJ totally given up or is he still working on it?

    I contacted TunerCat, but so far no response, not that I expect one.

    Honestly there's profit potential in a good tune for the Northstar crowd, even if the cars are getting older. Even 96 models are far from extinct.

    To anyone who is about to say "it's not worth it, just give up", well, hold your breath. If I have to throw a carb on top of that engine to get it down the track in 13 seconds that's what I'm going to do. But that's my last resort. Retaining EFI is quite essential, and I'd hate to interfere with a lot of the controls of the car.

    My local GM dealer told me about someone who can retune the Northstars. I don't believe it but I'm going to check into this. Apparently I have one that was retuned according to the previous owner and the local dealership. A 2001 Deville. A parts car I bought. I wish someone had the time to analyze the tune. AJ if you're following this the PCM is your's to check. Like I said I'm about 95-99% sure this is false information.

  5. #20
    tateos's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    Jake - I'm not trying to discourage you or putting you down for what you want to do, or even saying that there are no improvements to be made - just saying that FOR ME, the factory tune and package are a pretty good fit for what the cars are. I had a situation yesterday where I was trying to merge the Eldo to the left and get in front of a truck, and that truck that was in my left was determined not to let me do that. I was gradually giving it more and more gas, but the truck was still in my way, so I said to myself "Alright, that's it, I've had it!" and I floored it. Need I say more? the trans downshifted, that truck was left in the dust, and that's all I need.

  6. #21
    97EldoCoupe is offline U.S. Patent #8,740,532 - www.studkit.com
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    Very true Tateos. They do very well bone stock. My STS moves pretty good too. (The Eldo still has a 4.0. Good power but better economy). When I took mine down the track and saw little Subaru WRX's and Cobalt SS's beating my Caddy I said to myself "this is a 32 valve, DOHC V8. V8!. There's got to be a way to get a little more out of it". We are hauling around a lot more weight but I just wish these cars would do a tad better against some of the cars out there.

    Options would be nice. I know one car that stayed even with an LS1 Camaro. A 1998 STS. The owner is a member here. He said they stayed even up to 220km/h and then he figured forget it, that was fast enough. I personally think some cars have a tune that make them respond different. Having test driven many late 90's STS's, I can honestly say that some seem gutless. I really think, and I believe AJ can confirm this, the potential IS THERE.

    I know I could be wasting my time and others' time too.

    I think I'll just leave it right here. I'll come back on these forums when

    1. Destroyer stays out of the Northstar thread (since these engines shouldn't be worth his time anyway)
    2. I have proof that there are ways to really increase performance. I'm sick of talk. It's time for action and results.
    -Or-
    3. I join a Mustang/Lincoln Mark VIII forum and bash the Ford 4.6 constantly until people get sick of me

    See y'all around.

  7. #22
    Destroyer's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    Quote Originally Posted by tateos View Post
    I tend to agree with codewise. I know even the 6 cylinder DI CTS has more than 300 HP, and I like speed and power too, but with gas prices what they are, and where they are headed, 300 smooth, reliable, quiet HP on tap for me when I need it, in a 4,000 pound luxury car seems to be enough for me (and probably most other Cadillac owners). There are plenty of cars out there that are capable of being faster, stock, than a Northstar Cadillac could ever be, so why even bother? For new cars, I'm thinking about some of the Mercedes AMG cars, and similar cars from other European manufacturers, and also the high performance Japanese cars like the Subarus and Mitusbishi's and Lexuses. Also, the highest performance Challengers and Mustangs and Camaros will blow away anything I believe a Northstar equipped Cadillac is capable of.
    This is exactly what I'm saying. It's all about demand and nobody is demanding a truly hi-po N*. What is the point? If people really wanted a hi-po N* they could always get an XLR-V or somehow get that motor into their Caddy right? If there was a demand for N*'s to be retrofitted into other cars that would be used for racing or whatever then there could be a market. The closest thing I've seen is sticking N*'s into Fiero's but even then, a stock N* will move a Fiero very well. Back in the 80's it was fairly popular to plop a big block Caddy 500 into an Fbody or whatever but with the readily available, superior Chevy motors there is no need to flop a N* into anything. I just don't see modifying FWD N* cars being popular especially considering the cost to do it.

  8. #23
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    Quote Originally Posted by 97EldoCoupe View Post
    If I have to throw a carb on top of that engine to get it down the track in 13 seconds that's what I'm going to do.
    Do it, the parts to do it are out there. Now that is something I'd like to see. I'll bet if you sold carb'd versions of the N* there would be some demand to use them in older FWD GM cars like an '80 Citation or something...........

  9. #24
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    Submariner409 is offline If it won't run, slap in a big stereo
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    The operative acronym in this entire thread is "FWD", and it's enlightening that many manufacturers are going back (forward?) to RWD again.

    I've posted it before, and I'll post it again: Use your clean, stock, plush Seville or Deville to tow the tricked-out 1968 Camaro to the track.

  10. #25
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    I recall our old Guru once mention that 300 HP is (roughly) about the limit for a FWD due to torque steer. He said that he once drove one (modded) much higher and really had to hold on tight. I'm sure the GM engineers are looking at a safety factor and the GM lawyers are looking at a liability factor in this.

  11. #26
    eyekandyboats.inc's Avatar
    eyekandyboats.inc is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    you could alwayse make a fancy diff to deal with the torque steer.
    lol

  12. #27
    95caddykid is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    I kinda feel cool having a car that is just to good to be molested by the after market industry. Hondas, Fords, GM cars such as camaro's are just absolute whores of the aftermarket industry. i guess im trying to say is that im happy with what i got right now. all the money i could be spending on fart cannons and headers is going towards more important things in life. she may not be the fastest car on the road but she fast enough to put a smile on my face when i drop the hammer from 25.

  13. #28
    tateos's Avatar
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    Quote Originally Posted by 97EldoCoupe View Post

    ...I personally think some cars have a tune that make them respond different. Having test driven many late 90's STS's, I can honestly say that some seem gutless....
    Yeah - the '97 300 HP ETC with 155K miles (well - maybe around 125K miles on the engine) seems more powerful than my '00 300 HP DTS with 78K miles; I know the DTS is a 4 door, but they both weigh about the same - within 200 pounds, I think. The ETC has really come to life since I did the HG job - all I did was de-carbon the combustion chambers - maybe that keeps the compression ratio and so the knock retard down? I don't know, but I've owned the car since new, and the car actually scares me sometimes lately when I floor it!

  14. #29
    chacenbra is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    Quote Originally Posted by tateos View Post
    and the car actually scares me sometimes lately when I floor it!
    I have definately had some white nuckle moments at WOT in my DeVille.

  15. #30
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    Re: Cadillac Engineers please help us!

    I got rid of my 99 Deville hoping a DTS would be "faster". Its not. I mean top end it is, but thats because the 99 was limited to 112mph. Both cars had bad torque steer, especially over uneven bumpy roads. Hate it. Maybe if there was a steering dampner? Jap bikes like Kawasaki ZX10R's have them to keep tank slap down. Tank slap is when the front wheel gets overpowering and the handlebars shake left/right real bad. You cant even hold it, thats how bad it can get. Dampners keep that down. Maybe that could help with torque steer if it was applied to the left and right movement of the front wheels. Like a sideways shock absorber.

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