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Northstar Engines and System Technical Discussion Discussion, Going to the track in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Go out and buy the PCMScan for your self....
  1. #46
    AJxtcman's Avatar
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    Re: Going to the track

    Go out and buy the PCMScan for your self.

  2. #47
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    Re: Going to the track

    The second graph shows a date of 1969, a car weight of 1,000 lbs., and a final drive ratio of 6:1, all moved by some mysterious engine of rather impressive power output.

    What do these two graphs have to do with Sevilles, Devilles, Cadillacs, and PCM tuning ???

    Looks like drag racing on Saturday night in front of the HDTV with a beer and an X-Box.

  3. #48
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    Re: Going to the track

    Quote Originally Posted by AJxtcman View Post
    I can tell you what I changed, but why?
    I'm not asking what you changed, I don't want or need to know what you changed... I mean who wants to change their PCM and lose a tenth?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJxtcman View Post

    Like both Codewize and myself has stated before. You can pull out a PCM and install another. The second PCM will out perform the first until the Adaptive are learned! This may take up to two weeks. If Codewize left the stock PCM in and drove around for two weeks and went to the track his time would not be the same as he ran and the tuned PCM would outperformed it. This is a fact! 100% FACT!
    I have read a lot on this FACT.
    I have done testing to prove it. I ran X with program 500 and then re-burned program 500 into the PCM and ran faster.
    Not only does that not make sense... These PCMs have an adaptive keep alive memory...it takes YEARs for them to RESET...Plugged in or sitting on a shelf... That too is a 100% FACT
    But If you'all knew this about this supposed problem going in...Why even do the test?

    But if you apply this logic to Codewise's third run on your PCM it too should have all of the parameters reset and the car should have run even better on the third run...or at least faster then the first...

    BUT, your PCM, with reset parameters was the WORST of the BUNCH...
    AND THAT TOO is a FACT.

    OK never mind lets say you are right...
    lets say this PCM self adjusts and lets say it instantly forgets its adaption when unplug (it hasn't been like this 1995 but what the heck) ...
    This goes back to what I was saying all along...
    and I'll make it big and caps so there is no confusion

    MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN THAT ON MOST GAS CARS WITHOUT MECHANICAL IMPROVEMENTS A TUNED PCM BUYS YOU LITTLE IF ANY CHANGE IN PERFORMANCE.


    Codewise's test demonstrates this. And thats a FACT!

    I think from your last statement you are saying there is no need for more testing... Or taking a Vin Y to the dyno/track 'cause there is no way to prove this tune.

    Thats too bad.
    The proof on the table is that the tune does not Help Vin 9 Cars...
    BUT MAYBE IT CAN HELP VIN Y CARS...


    Quote Originally Posted by AJxtcman View Post

    NOW WITH ALL MY CHARTS.
    You need to look at the information and I am not talking about the charts.
    We have been using this also




    Why isn't that OK?
    The time scale on the Tech II is ok also.
    Why is that not OK?
    You're joking right...
    You want us to consider a drag race simulator vs

    Real Life DATA

    No-ones car ran 13.2... What is the point of posting a simulated 13.2 run when in Real Life these cars are all at best 14-15 second cars

    I have copies of dyno2003 and drag2003... I can post charts of 11 second cars 12 second cars and 13 second cars too... All that does, like the cart above, is confuse everyone.

    That chart is as relevant to our cars as the price of tea in China.

    If you posted that chart in the HOPEs that someone on this board will see it and think WOW someone runs 13.2 quarters in a Northstar powered Deville... THATs NOT ACCURATE.


  4. #49
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    Re: Going to the track

    Quote Originally Posted by Ur7x View Post
    Why is that not OK?
    You're joking right...
    You want us to consider a drag race simulator vs

    Real Life DATA

    No-ones car ran 13.2... What is the point of posting a simulated 13.2 run when in Real Life these cars are all at best 14-15 second cars

    I have copies of dyno2003 and drag2003... I can post charts of 11 second cars 12 second cars and 13 second cars too... All that does, like the cart above, is confuse everyone.

    That chart is as relevant to our cars as the price of tea in China.

    If you posted that chart in the HOPEs that someone on this board will see it and think WOW someone runs 13.2 quarters in a Northstar powered Deville... THATs NOT ACCURATE.

    Sorry I messed up
    Those are not my screen shot!
    They are from the Palmers website.
    I have not posted any of the PCMscan Dyno or 1/4 mile times because I need to go back in and build a new program for Highline with his 18" tires!
    Why post something that far off?

  5. #50
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    Re: Going to the track

    Quote Originally Posted by Ur7x View Post
    I'm not asking what you changed, I don't want or need to know what you changed... I mean who wants to change their PCM and lose a tenth?
    I don't think so!

    I have NO idea what the Stock Tune will pull out on timing if you try to launch with the brake!

    I can tell you that you can't do that with my Tune!
    To get the Torque Management to work with the EBCM I had to rescale it. Do you under stand that?
    I Codewize would have talk to me first I would have told him all the tricks.
    I have done a lot of testing and if you crack that throttle on my tune it will retard the timing in to the the minus area.
    Will his stock tune?
    His stock tune may just turn off the cylinders.

    You still don't get who I know and who has been helping me!
    I am not doing this on my own and haven't been from the start.
    How could myself a tech just come out with a tune?
    I have Help from some major um I can't say.
    I think you may be getting it.
    Special thanks to BOB

  6. #51
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    Re: Going to the track

    OK Well as you all know, I'm the first one who wants to be fair here.

    I was the first one with an attempted dyno run and I'm the first one to post track results, aside from AJ.

    Someone tell me who to launch the car for best results and I'll do it. Let's try another tune? I'm all for fairness but I think we need more than a tenth of a second difference to really be sure.

    As stated before, a tenth can come or go from anyone of a million variables. That's exactly why I wanted to do another (the third run) with the tuned PCM. To be sure it wasn't by chance or luck that the stock PCM ran better.
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  7. #52
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    Re: Going to the track

    Quote Originally Posted by codewize View Post

    I was the first one with an attempted dyno run and I'm the first one to post track results, aside from AJ.

    As stated before, a tenth can come or go from anyone of a million variables. That's exactly why I wanted to do another (the third run) with the tuned PCM. To be sure it wasn't by chance or luck that the stock PCM ran better.
    Very true... As your tests shows... neither tune ran better.. they were so close that they should be considered a tie.

  8. #53
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    Re: Going to the track

    Quote Originally Posted by Ur7x View Post


    MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN THAT ON MOST GAS CARS WITHOUT MECHANICAL IMPROVEMENTS A TUNED PCM BUYS YOU LITTLE IF ANY CHANGE IN PERFORMANCE.
    Well what is your personal experience? I'm sorry, but I 100% disagree with you on that. I have been wrenching on GM LSx vehicles for about 8 years, and I've personally seen numerous examples of cases where a custom PCM tune has gained as much as 20-30hp at the wheels, back to back dynos, and track testing to back up the gain on the dyno.

    GM has a general tune it installs on a given car. That tune is to suffice for the entire fleet of that model it is producing, granted with probably a number of small updates throughout the model run. They are not going to spend the effort to test and fine tune each car. But with production variances, what is optimum for one car may not be for another. And manufacturers tend to tune cars conservatively. When I had a custom dyno tune done on my car, the stock tune was calling for a max of 22 degrees advance at WOT, and the a/f was hoving around 11.8-12.0. Just by bumping the timing up to 26 degrees, and leaning it out to a 12.5 target, the car gained about 15hp.

    Go take a 2.0 turbo car, like the new Cobalt or Sky Redline, and they are tuned absurdly fat from the factory just as an added safety against detonation. Certainly not tuned optimum for the setup. Nevermind the new GM autos that have Torque Management up the ying yang. GMHTP magazine took an '06 GTO, gave it a tune cutting down the TM, some good tires, and a 2600 stall, and shaved almost a second off the stock time.

  9. #54
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    Re: Going to the track

    Quote Originally Posted by NHRATA01 View Post
    Well what is your personal experience? I'm sorry, but I 100% disagree with you on that. I have been wrenching on GM LSx vehicles for about 8 years, and I've personally seen numerous examples of cases where a custom PCM tune has gained as much as 20-30hp at the wheels, back to back dynos, and track testing to back up the gain on the dyno.

    GM has a general tune it installs on a given car. That tune is to suffice for the entire fleet of that model it is producing, granted with probably a number of small updates throughout the model run. They are not going to spend the effort to test and fine tune each car. But with production variances, what is optimum for one car may not be for another. And manufacturers tend to tune cars conservatively. When I had a custom dyno tune done on my car, the stock tune was calling for a max of 22 degrees advance at WOT, and the a/f was hoving around 11.8-12.0. Just by bumping the timing up to 26 degrees, and leaning it out to a 12.5 target, the car gained about 15hp.

    Go take a 2.0 turbo car, like the new Cobalt or Sky Redline, and they are tuned absurdly fat from the factory just as an added safety against detonation. Certainly not tuned optimum for the setup. Nevermind the new GM autos that have Torque Management up the ying yang. GMHTP magazine took an '06 GTO, gave it a tune cutting down the TM, some good tires, and a 2600 stall, and shaved almost a second off the stock time.
    You are correct sir... That's why I was careful to add the word.. "MOST" and "GAS"

    Let me expand my quote..

    Just about EVERY Diesel will benefit from a CHIP as will just about EVERY Turbo car...

    But on Normally aspirated gas engines... again MOST engines will not benefit much from a chip... Your are right most of the The LSx's will... Believe it or not GM detuned these engines to:
    1) Keep insurance companies happy
    2) Keep the corvette supreme
    3) Balance power production vs transmission and suspension capabilities (limited success here)

    From what I have heard, in direct conversations with the engineers who built the Northstar, they left nothing on the table when it came to the PCM. It is reported in base tune to run ever so slightly rich to help protect the engine.

    There might be a few horses by leaning out the mixture... But only a couple.

  10. #55
    eldorado1 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Going to the track

    Quote Originally Posted by NHRATA01 View Post

    Go take a 2.0 turbo car, like the new Cobalt or Sky Redline, and they are tuned absurdly fat from the factory just as an added safety against detonation. Certainly not tuned optimum for the setup.
    They're not tuned optimally, they're tuned to last 100k for the warranty. There's always a trade off.

    Our cars will run as rich as 10:1 under sustained WOT to cool the pistons. Yes, there is a horsepower hit. Yes, it's better than pushing the car home.

    That said, there was a horsepower TV episode where they added 1 degree of timing to a supercharged LS1 and gained 50hp. Our cars aren't supercharged though.

    I think 10-15hp should be easily gained by a tune, but you have to know what you're doing not to push it too far and you have to run 91+ octane.

  11. #56
    NHRATA01 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Going to the track

    Quote Originally Posted by Ur7x View Post
    You are correct sir... That's why I was careful to add the word.. "MOST" and "GAS"

    Let me expand my quote..

    Just about EVERY Diesel will benefit from a CHIP as will just about EVERY Turbo car...

    But on Normally aspirated gas engines... again MOST engines will not benefit much from a chip... Your are right most of the The LSx's will... Believe it or not GM detuned these engines to:
    1) Keep insurance companies happy
    2) Keep the corvette supreme
    3) Balance power production vs transmission and suspension capabilities (limited success here)

    From what I have heard, in direct conversations with the engineers who built the Northstar, they left nothing on the table when it came to the PCM. It is reported in base tune to run ever so slightly rich to help protect the engine.

    There might be a few horses by leaning out the mixture... But only a couple.
    Actually in regards to points 1 and 2, they typically underrate the motor in various applications - but when you throw it on a dyno they'll put down similar numbers that indicate it's making more power than advertised. In the case of the LS1 Fbody vs. Ybody, they made the same power, and most of the times were a hair quicker than the Vettes. In the newer LSx platforms, cars such as the GTO and CTS-V will make the same power, but being they are in the range of 800lbs heavier, the Vette can be the big dog even making the same power. But yes I do agree with the third point about protecting the drivelines. I think they learned a lesson with so many LS1 warranty claims for wrecked 10 bolt rears, lol.

    Anyways on a 2000+ Caddy tuned from the factory for 87, I would bet you'd gain a decent amount of power retuning the fuel/spark curves for 91 or 93.

  12. #57
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    Re: Going to the track

    What if I set the AFR up for 12.5 to 12.6 and set the Timing Low Octane Table to mirror the High Octane Table?
    Oh yeah I used a wideband on the AFR

  13. #58
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    Re: Going to the track

    What if I was advised of the high octane trick by a GM engineer. What if I got the engineers number from a family friend (Bob)

  14. #59
    eldorado1 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Going to the track

    Rich mean best torque is at 12.2:1, lean mean best torque is at 12.8:1.

    If you copy the high octane table and paste it into the low octane table, and run 87 octane you are going to get KR and run SLOWER than you would if you kept the low octane table stock. Which brings up my next question - codewise - what are you running for gas?

  15. #60
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    Re: Going to the track

    AJ, re: Your last post. Are you capable of shutting the lid of the Pandora's Box that your references to a nebulous "Bob" will probably open ?? (For the relative newcomers, go all the way back to pages 1 - 8 (2003) of this and Seville and look for threads started by...."......bob".)

    Stand on your own two feet without props.......cagey references to "He said, She said" won't even buy a draft Silver Sissy at Happy Hour.

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