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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; No idea, but I will tell you that with the electric supercharger on it, when it worked, created positive pressure ...
  1. #16
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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    No idea, but I will tell you that with the electric supercharger on it, when it worked, created positive pressure and the car ran the same as normal, however when you hit the throttle...

    How far away is your turbo setup, illumina?

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    Quote Originally Posted by 100
    Just for my curiosity:
    how does those system control the air/fuel mixture? I thought 4.9 can't handle any positive pressure just because the way the MAP sensor works.
    You guys have very nice cars!
    Yoy're right in that the MAP sensors cannot read boost. It might handle about 2-3 psi at most, but nothing more than that. I've been working on this problem for some time with my project. Just no way around that, thus meaning that if you want to run serious boost, you have to get creative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost C
    How far away is your turbo setup, illumina?
    Still a ways off. Just not enough time to get it done. If I give an actual timeframe, it'll take another 50 years before I actually get it done...So, let's just say that I'm not too far from putting it all together, I just have no time to do what needs to be done to make it fit. And no room in my garage for it right now either. I have a whole other project that I've been working on, which quite honestly is more important as it will help to pay for stage-2 and then some.

    So in a nutshell, between school, work, business, and some other projects, it's on the back burner for the time being...

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    I know how multiple projects goes. Right now, we're working on both Evo Eng cars to get them ready for the race season, and half a dozen local cars to prep them for shows, and we still have orders on parts.

    Interesting on the boost pressure thing, most likely the ESC worked because it only makes around 2psi.

  4. #19
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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    Interesting... So, let's say up to +2 psi boost, no sensor modfication is needed, am I correct? What I don't understand a lot is if the car runs fine when it is in a closed loop. In the closed loop, the PCM primarily relys on info from O2 sensor to determine amount of gas from injectors, right? If so, info from MAP may be not important. Another thing is how you set the timing. 10 degree and use 93 only or retarding or what? I can't belive these 4.9 don't have a knock sensor...

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    Indeed, 4.9 does not have a knock sensor.

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    Quote Originally Posted by 100
    Interesting... So, let's say up to +2 psi boost, no sensor modfication is needed, am I correct? What I don't understand a lot is if the car runs fine when it is in a closed loop. In the closed loop, the PCM primarily relys on info from O2 sensor to determine amount of gas from injectors, right? If so, info from MAP may be not important. Another thing is how you set the timing. 10 degree and use 93 only or retarding or what? I can't belive these 4.9 don't have a knock sensor...
    Closed loop operation is determined by that and many other factors as well. Even the thermostat rating and coolant temp sensor are part of those tables. Closed loop operation is mainly for fueling strategies at low RPM driving and when the engine goes into WOT, it goes into an open loop system.

    The timing at 10 degrees is a conservative setting by the factory that is 'supposed' to let you run 89 octane when needed, but I have always used 91+ octane fuels. And since I have my timing advanced by nearly 4 degrees, you better beleive that I run the highest octane possible.

    As for boost, forget about running anything other than an electronic supercharger in these cars with the stock fuel system and ECM. I have found away around this problem for my turbocharger setup, but it requires a lot more work than most people have the patience for. Therefore, information from the MAP sensor is very important in regards to naturally aspirated fuel strategies that the ECM conducts. If you run any boost, like I've said before, 2, perhaps 3 psi is possible if you're really lucky, but I just wouldn't push it with a 9.5:1 compression ratio and a lack of a knock sensor.

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    Another note on electric superchargers too, to be truly effective enough, chances are it would draw so much electricity that much of the alternator loads would negate most of the overall gains. i.e. if it takes 50 amps to turn the electric SC fast enough to make 2 psi boost @ 5000 rpm, and it gains you some hp, how much is lost with the alternator making up for it? We must always consult our laws of physics on this. The law of conservation of energy. As for a turbo, much is just plain wasted anyway, so that is why turbo's are my first choice. Belt driven do ok, but they soak up a lot to run (that is why the blower belts are so many or so big, slippage is a big big deal), so it might take 100 hp on the belt to help you make more power, so the overall gains aren't as good as they should be.

    Now, as a thought. If we can increase boost at lower rpms, say idle to 2500 rpm and keep SOME positive pressure, we can at least make some gains there, but the concern is that the boost maker would be a restriction on the intake in the higher rpms, losing power.

    It always costs you something somewhere to gain something somewhere else. Yes, we have a 140amp alternator, and the battery is a great storage device, but it may take an awful lot to charge and maintain enough power to really be effective.

    Maybe rig it to make boost at low rpms, and somehow bypass over it's limit?

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    N0DIH, you made a good point...

    Let me see if I can do ideal and very simple estimate...

    At, say 2000 rpm, a 4.9L sucks, 4.9 x 2000 / 2 = 4900 L/min = 4.9 m^3/min of air. 4.9 / 60 = 0.082 m^3/sec of air. Boosting up to + 2 psi = 14000 Pa (101325 Pa = 14.7 psi). So, work needs to be done is 0.082 x 14000 = 1150 W, which is a bit less than 2 PS (I think), 1 HP is about 750 W, I think. Let's say the electric supercharger has like 70 % efficiency, and the alternator is 90 % efficient, it would require 1150 / 0.7 / 0.9 = 1850 W... This is still less than 3 PS.

    Well, 1150 / 0.7 = 1650 W, 1650 / 12 = 140 A! The motor needs 140 A of current! Did I do a mistake or what?

    Anyway, I think, if your engine makes 3 PS or more, the electric supercharger would be plus overall.

    Well, someone needs to check my calculation though...

    PS: My starter is working great! Thanks for your help > N0DIH. Without your instruction and stuff, I was going to use a rebuild starter...

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    keep in mind, an electric s/c being ran all the time... would kill it nearly instantly.

    I have heard nothing but snake oil reguarding the E-s/c

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    Sorry I didn't get all you needed, the scanner worked, but the computer wasn't letting me put it in a format I could post easily. Glad you got it running!

    Not sure if it is right, but it does sound like it. It needs a lot of power to do it. That is why exhaust turbos are so much better. We can't make energy from nothing, but we can convert super hot exhaust gas to spin a fan.....

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    Yup, it is one of those things that has a good idea, but the power needed is just too much to be realistic. It isn't so much moving the air, it is pressurizing it into an engine that is consuming it faster than we can build it up. You can possibly, if you are lucky, make some slightly positive pressure before the throttle plates at idle, but I would say the potential to do it with anything short of a turbo or belt driving SC it nearly impossible (well, impractical).

    Yes, and running full time, no way, burn up fast. Which isn't really needed. The beauty of forced induction is like adding variable cubic inches. 3L V6 with 14.7 psi is breathing the same amout of fuel and air as a 6L V8. But yet at less than boosted power modes, it is then a smaller engine. It is best of all worlds....

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Wolf
    keep in mind, an electric s/c being ran all the time... would kill it nearly instantly.
    I have heard nothing but snake oil reguarding the E-s/c

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    If the draw is really as much as you say...

    the only thing i can think of is to mount a 2nd battery in the truck or something, and run the E-s/c off that.... have that battery wired to the alternator as well.... but have a switch to disable to alternator from charging that battery. When you in ready to race, disable the rear battery so it wont be getting charged, it should hold plenty of power to run the E-s/c for a long time, then when you are back to cruising or whatever, flip the switch and let it charge.

    How much strain does something like that really put on the alternator?

    Of course if you REALLY wanted... maybe wire the alternator up to the MAP or whatever it is, so when the computer senses WOT it stops the alternator from charging... probably not the best idea though.

    I personally never liked FI... only some casses... the s/c 3800, the 3.8 Turbo in the GN etc...

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    Quote Originally Posted by illumina
    You're right in that the MAP sensors cannot read boost. It might handle about 2-3 psi at most, but nothing more than that. I've been working on this problem for some time with my project. Just no way around that, thus meaning that if you want to run serious boost, you have to get creative.
    .
    Best way to work around it, use a simple check valve, ball activated that closes when boost is sent to the map. This was the map only See's vacuum. It has no idea when boost comes in. Believe it or not these are used in fish tanks so the water can't back up the lines.

    As for fuel pressure around boost. A simple rising rate fpr in the return line should solve that problem for low to medium boost levels. Until you need to go to larger injectors and in need to reduce idle fuel pressure which a rising rate can't do.

    Sorry now back to the topic at hand.

    Ghost, dude I love the intake setup.

    I am at a serious loss on my motor and need something like you have.

    My car has an air intake scoop on the side of the car that is for th air intake. At this point I am pretty much running on an open top and drawing air from the top of the engine that really sucks. (hot air that is) I really look forward to reading more about your setup.

    The Capt.

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    Quote Originally Posted by illumina
    You're right in that the MAP sensors cannot read boost. It might handle about 2-3 psi at most, but nothing more than that. I've been working on this problem for some time with my project. Just no way around that, thus meaning that if you want to run serious boost, you have to get creative.
    .
    Best way to work around it, use a simple check valve, ball activated that closes when boost is sent to the map. This was the map only See's vacuum. It has no idea when boost comes in. Believe it or not these are used in fish tanks so the water can't back up the lines.

    As for fuel pressure around boost. A simple rising rate fpr in the return line should solve that problem for low to medium boost levels. Until you need to go to larger injectors and in need to reduce idle fuel pressure which a rising rate can't do.

    Sorry now back to the topic at hand.

    Ghost, dude I love the intake setup.

    I am at a serious loss on my motor and need something like you have.

    My car has an air intake scoop on the side of the car that is for th air intake. At this point I am pretty much running on an open top and drawing air from the top of the engine that really sucks. (hot air that is) I really look forward to reading more about your setup.

    The Capt.

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    Re: Ram Air/Cold air intake for 4.9?

    It's plastic tubing that's been heat bent and painted, with a foam filter (on my car) or a cone style.
    Customer's car with a cone filter on it.

    There's not alot to it, but it has less heat soak than aluminum because it's very thick, and dissipates the heat faster, which is why I make them like that.

    What does a 4.9 look like in a Fiero engine bay?

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