4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?
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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; I have read a lot of reviews that go both ways about the Cadillac 4.1L engine more specifically the HT4100 ...
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    Chevyguy387 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Exclamation 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    I have read a lot of reviews that go both ways about the Cadillac 4.1L engine more specifically the HT4100 but is that the v6 or v8 or both? I am looking at a Sedan Deville with a 4.1 v6 the guy only wants $750 for it so I figure i cant pass it up but I was hoping someone could help me understand a little bit about what the problems are with these engines. Are the quality issues only with v8, v6, both, or what? PLEASE Help! I want this car but i dont want trouble forever.

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    The HT4100 is a V8. The 4.1 V6 was used between 1980-1982 I think. I have no knowledge of it's flaws or dependability.
    Sorry I couldn't give you more info.

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    Chevyguy387 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    Well, thanks for the info it's at least good to know that the HT4100 isn't the v6.

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevyguy387
    I have read a lot of reviews that go both ways about the Cadillac 4.1L engine more specifically the HT4100 but is that the v6 or v8 or both? I am looking at a Sedan Deville with a 4.1 v6 the guy only wants $750 for it so I figure i cant pass it up but I was hoping someone could help me understand a little bit about what the problems are with these engines. Are the quality issues only with v8, v6, both, or what? PLEASE Help! I want this car but i dont want trouble forever.
    If the car runs, drives, shifts through all gears smoothly it is worth $750 in parts even if everything else looks dogged. The 4.1L aluminum V8 is okay, but compared to the 4.9L aluminum V8 the smaller V8 seems sluggish. The biggest differences between the two engines are the top end design (intake / heads/ cam / fuel delivery). The most common problem with these engines is neglect. If the coolant did not get changed on schedule and the required supplement added, there is a strong chance of head warp and coolant leaks into the cylinders. If the coolant recovery tank is empty, offer less than $500 even if the car appears great inside and out. Never was a 4.1L V6 in a DeVille but there was a sequential V8-6-4 produced for about three model years in the full sized Sedan DeVille which looked like the Brougham.

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevyguy387
    Well, thanks for the info it's at least good to know that the HT4100 isn't the v6.
    OK, wait a minute, so, the car you are contemplating, is it an 80-82 with the V6?
    While I'm not familiar with the reliability I would assume that it is terribly under powered in that size car. If you have driven it and are satisfied with how it accelerates then go for it. Since the car is over 20 years old you must assume that you will be performing lots of maintenance and restorative repairs. Keep that in mind.

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    Quote Originally Posted by 91TexasSeville
    Never was a 4.1L V6 in a DeVille but there was a sequential V8-6-4 produced for about three model years in the full sized Sedan DeVille which looked like the Brougham.
    I found this here on our own site;

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/cadill...gmc_252lb.html

    Part Name V6, 4.1 L, 252 CID Rebuilt Engine
    Automobile Cadillac
    Stock No. FRDGMC252LB
    Description With or without smog, oil pump kit only.
    Size 4.1 L
    Engine Type V6

    Applications:
    1980 - 1982 Cadillac Deville
    1981 - 1982 Cadillac Seville
    1980 - 1982 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
    1981 - 1982 Cadillac Eldorado

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    The 4.1L V6 was used in the Deville at least in 1982. Way underpowered for those cars. My Father-In-Law bought one against my advise back in 1989. He drove it until the trans blew up and it then got a real Cadillac drivetrain. Many of these cars met their death when the 2004R trans broke the sun shell. That V6 block is sought after by Grand National folks. The HT4100 block OTOH is only sought after at the scales in the scrap yard. The V6 uses a feedback Rottenchester Clodrajet similar to what you would see in a 307. The 307 and HT4100 will both beat the V6 in a drag race.

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    i always wanted to build a turbo 4.1 v6 like what was used in that indy 500 buick rivera pace car in the early 80s

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    I can give you "Tom's history of the Buick V6"

    1960-1962ish 225 Odd Fire V6 is born and used in the Buick Skylark
    1963 225 sold to Jeep
    1964-1974 Jeep owned
    1974 Buick bought it back and redesigned it to the 231 Odd Fire
    1975 Buick introduces the World's Most Underpowered car, the 1975 Buick LeSebre with 95hp Buick 231 V6! (4800 lbs and 90 hp, find me a weaker one!)
    1978 Introduce Even Fire V6 231 115
    1978 Introduce 196 CID (3.2L V6) 105 hp
    1978 Introduce Turbo 3.8L! 2BBL and 4BBL versions, with new ESC
    1979 Introduce Tall Port Heads, more power for the Turbo! 140-170 hp
    1979 or 1980 3.2L dies
    1980 Introduce CCC (Computer Command Control) 231 is VIN Code A, wasn't known for keeping rod bearings in the block long, spun bearings were commonplace, even a low miles. 115hp
    1980 Death to the 2BBL Turbo?
    1980 Introduce 4.1 (252) V6, ALL 252's had Q-Jets. All 252's got the rolled fillet 3.8L Turbo crankshaft.
    1984 The 3.8L is Turbocharged with Sequential Port EFI, 225HP (or so)
    1984 Warped variant of the 231 Turbo finds its way into Rivieras, mostly touring models (special wheels are giveaway)
    1984 252 dies, last put in the Regals and Riviera. VIN Code K
    1986 Intercooler is added, more power! 245 HP
    1986 GN Spanks the Corvette!
    1987 GN Spanks the Corvette!
    1987 GNX is born! Spanks Calloway Twin Turbo Vette!
    1988 GN is killed (thank you Chevy....)
    1987 3.8L (FWD) is converted to "3800" and becomes "On Center Block" with balance shafts. Becomes one of GM's more reliable engines ever, from one of the worst in the early 80's. 165 hp/225 lb ft torque VIN code C
    1989 Turbo Trans AM is back with 3.8L Turbo, similar to the 3.8L in the GN, not the 3800, but shares the 3800 on center block with 3.8L heads. 245 hp. Highest factory top speed of any Trans AM or Firebird, 162 mph.
    1991 VIN Code L, Tuned Port intake is added, 170 HP/225 lb ft torque
    1992 3800 is Supercharged, making 205 hp/245 lb ft torque
    1995 3800 "L" is redesigned as the Series II 3800, now VIN Code "K", making 205 hp/225 lb ft torque. Gets 1.6:1 Roller Rockers, similar to LT4 Corvette Rockers.
    1996 Supercharged 3800 Series II is released
    2000-2001 Series III 3800 is released, 200-205 HP, but now a short deck 3800. Lighter and slightly smaller. Quieter engine that it predecessors.
    Current version is relatively unchanged.

    This is not a comprehensive list, and I am sure I am not 100% accurate (please correct me GN owners! I wanna know!) But this is what I have compiled in my head over the years.

    So, what to do? Get a 4.1L V6 Cad and get a Carb'd Turbo kit for it, makes a nice 170 hp and high 20's on gas mileage! Very smooth and quiet and a LOT of potential!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevyguy387
    I have read a lot of reviews that go both ways about the Cadillac 4.1L engine more specifically the HT4100 but is that the v6 or v8 or both? I am looking at a Sedan Deville with a 4.1 v6 the guy only wants $750 for it so I figure i cant pass it up but I was hoping someone could help me understand a little bit about what the problems are with these engines. Are the quality issues only with v8, v6, both, or what? PLEASE Help! I want this car but i dont want trouble forever.

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    N0DIH's Avatar
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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?


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    elk9300` is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    The 4.1 V6 is a 3.8 bored out with a rolled fillet on the crank journals (for strength).
    A rumor I heard was that this engine was supposed to go into Cadillacs only, while the 3.8 would go into Buicks.

    THe "4.1" reputation usually comes from the Cadillac HT 4100 engines. THe 4.1 V6 in Cadillacs were not that popular (nobody wanted V6 power in a Cadillac, even if it was a credit option)
    This crank was used on the 4.1 and the turbos, however if the engine was replaced or rebuilt at any time, the crank may not have the rolled fillets. The only way to tell would be to drop the pan and pull a bearing.


    To turbo charge the engine, it would probably be to your advantage to use forged pistons (vs cast). and beef up the trans with the BRF valve body (same used in the GNs) You already have the knock sensor essential to the turbo. Fuel delivery will be an issue (carb or FI) For the carb, you will need the manifold setup used in the CCC version of the carb turbo (generally 1981-1983), previous versions used a crude spark control setup. An alky injection setup would work on boost and would limit detonation and spark retard if the knock sensor detects knock.

    The FI version is more expensive (sometimes harder to find), but will give you more performance potential.

    The Buick turbo was introduced in 78 with a 2bbl and 4 bbl.
    In 79 the 2bbl was dropped. The Regal, LeSabre (B-body) and new FWD Riviera get the turbo option.
    1981 only the Regal and Riv have the turbo option (the Riviera until 1985 and Regal until 1987)

    While it is not a V8, the 4.1 V6 does have some performance potential.You could look at performance parts for the Buick V6 (headers, cam etc) to start off and research the turbo add ons for later.

    Here is a web-site that talks about the carbed V6 Buicks and turbos
    http://home.flash.net/~rjgeorge/

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    Yup, the 4.1L and 3.8L turbo shared cranks, hence the "turbo crank". It is the rolled fillet crank. Worthy low cost upgrade for any 3.8L (non 3800), even fire V6.

    The odd fire and even fire's have a very different crank, distributor and probably camshaft.

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    NODIH That was a pretty good summary of the V6 history, I hope you didn't take offense to some of the corrections I commented on.

    AS far as the 200R4 and reliability, they are decent transmissions iif built right. GM apparently used some plastic internal parts which caused these transmissions to fail. Some back issue of GM Hi tech performance talks about the weak link in this transmission and how to cure it. Before finding my 85 Fleetwood Brougham with the 4.1 V8, I was looking for an early one with the V6 and do the performance upgrades to it. I am still considering dropping in a turbo 4.1 V6 or the FI 368 with the 200R4

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    Not at all, I appreciate it, my history is off of what I remember over the years. Much from a friend of mine's dad as we built a 4.1L for his 78 Monza. Car was a blast!

    I don't know the details of the turbo 3.8, I do know the 301 Turbo, as I have one.

    The 200 4R is way underrated, but does need fixing before they put real power to it. They survive behind 455's built properly. I have one sitting in the basement ready to be built for my 400 in my T/A, unless I put in the 455 and then drop it in!

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    Re: 4.1 v6, 4.1 v8-- What's the differance?

    Just a heads up. I owned a '82 Buick Riviera with the 4.1 v6. The tranny was shot (2,100 to repair), and the engine had low oil pressure. It seems that the cranks that they put in this engine, were softer than the bearings it was riding on. Hence the low oil pressure. Low oil pressure, plagued the early 3.8's, and the 4.1 v6's. Ever notice how many used Grand Nationals for sale, claim to have a rebuilt engine, with low mileage? This is the reason. Stay away from the 4.1 v6, it is garbage.

    Don

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