The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

[illumina]

Okay folks, it's getting close to crunch time with the turbocharger...Had you thinking, huh?

Anyways, this project is still a little off from actually starting, but I now have most of the pieces in place for the project to begin.

4.9 turbocharger, stage one indicates that the turbo will be placed on an existing engine/transmission combo without an actual rebuild. I will be running no more than 6 psi of boost, and will try to get away with not using an intercooler. We'll see how it works out. I am well aware what this might mean for my engine and tranny, but I feel that it will be good for tuning purposes in the long run for the second stage...

The 4.9 turbocharger, stage two, will include the 4.9 liter Cadillac engine (4.5 was considered for a split second) with ported/polished heads and intake; possibly more cam; new moly-chrome piston rings and general rebuild specifications. Overall, the stage two engine will be pumping around 260hp/300lb.ft naturally aspirated. I will add about 8 psi of intercooled boost which will make the engine perform in the 360hp range...I hope.

The second stage transaxle will be rebuilt and bullit proof and I will attempt to have a 3.73:1 final drive ratio. I have to study the tranny more, but I hope I can make those aforementioned changes.

So back to stage one. I have the following items for this project:

GM-3 IHI 6.5 liter diesel turbocharger. It is used and will probably need a rebuild in the bearing area, but for $76.00, I couldn't pass it up. I'll let everyone know if it needs a rebuild or not when I get it next week via UPS.

I have the MSD boost timing controll system with an MSD digital-6 ignition. These items will help combustion and timing while under boost.

I have two Deville exhaust manifolds (front and rear) and a cross-over pipe. They need some welding and an adapter fabricated for the turbo to attach to, but this won't be an issue...I hope.

Auxiliary fuel system minus the actual controlls (piggy-back ECM). I am going to do one of two things here: use an old TBI system for extra fuel needs; or I will make a new fuel log and use two or more auxiliary fuel injectors for fuel needs. An extra fuel pump and some cutting will be necessary, but they're taken care of...Minus the cutting of the fuel tank.

I am going to go with the Megasquirt system for now, which will set me back by a couple hundred (actually $140.00 for the complete DIY kit)...Unless someone hacks the Caddy ECM before I purchase it.

Extra exhaust tubing. I have plenty around in the garage I have just rented. It shouldn't be an issue.

That's it for now as far as supplies. I will also add a bypass valve so that the boost won't blow anything up when I take the pedal off the floor. And perhaps an electronic wastegateb to keep good controll of the boost I'll be running, which will be considered a rather small amount...We'll see how that works out.

As for the general reader: there are only a select few people here on this form who's technical advice will be heeded. They know who they are, and are welcome to help me out if possible. If you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say it: this is my project and I'll won't listen to your negatron views!

I am not concerned if people think this is a crazy idea: I don't care and if you don't have any good technical advice, read on...If you decide to flame or otherwise put this project down, I simply will not respond: your opinion won't even be considered valid. If you have valid advice and/or comments, type away. Remember, this is a community project that everyone will enjoy in the end. People want to see this done and IT WILL BE DONE!

That's it for now. This thread will be here for a while, and may even get burried due to my personal time constraints, but I'll keep everyone posted and will post pics of the items and project as soon as I recive more space for attachments.

[kmhebert]

Originally Posted by illumina

I am not concerned if people think this is a crazy idea: I don't care and if you don't have any good technical advice, read on

Which one of your Cadillacs are you going to do this project on? I am all for it, I would love some advice on how to go about supercharging my Brougham as well. I don't have any good technical advice (I can give you plenty of bad advice if you like ) but the way I see it is, it's your car, it's your CADILLAC, make it as great as you can and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[illumina]

Originally Posted by kmhebert

Which one of your Cadillacs are you going to do this project on? I am all for it, I would love some advice on how to go about supercharging my Brougham as well. I don't have any good technical advice (I can give you plenty of bad advice if you like ) but the way I see it is, it's your car, it's your CADILLAC, make it as great as you can and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

This will be for the 4.9 liter '91 Seville. She has run low 15's in the 1/4 mile, so I know she has what it takes.

I will have my '87 for a daily driver while the '91 will be getting the turbocharger. The '87 is also good insurance for if I blow the 4.9...But I believe the '91 will be fine for a low amount of boost as she sits now.

And please don't take my rant about bad advice/poor comments personally. I just don't want people telling me to buy a ready made fast car like a Vette or something. I have been looking into this project because it's something different from the crowd...She'll be a killer when she's done!

[kmhebert]

Originally Posted by illumina

And please don't take my rant about bad advice/poor comments personally. I just don't want people telling me to buy a ready made fast car like a Vette or something. I have been looking into this project because it's something different from the crowd...She'll be a killer when she's done!

Definitely, I look forward to hearing how it goes. Don't worry, I don't take anything personally. And I am seriously interested in hearing of any potential performance boosts for my Brougham; I love everything about it except the slothlike acceleration.

[Ralph]

Mike, wouldn't it just be easier to go with nitrous? Would that be a possibility?

What would the final hp comparison be for nitrous Vs. super C.

[illumina]

Originally Posted by Ralph

Mike, wouldn't it just be easier to go with nitrous? Would that be a possibility?

What would the final hp comparison be for nitrous Vs. super C.

No. Nitrous is not an option. It will probably kill the bottom end the first time I press the button.

Turbocharging is a much better option in terms of longevity and efficiency. And besides, nitrous will destroy the stock pistons in these engines on the first run...No No No...Not an option...Beside, nitrous is not real horsepower.

As it stands right now, I may be looking at a nice 75 hp increase from the turbo on 4-6 psi of boost which will be apparent through a decent range (2500-4500 rpm's) when compared to nitrous. It will not be as tough on the bottom end and pistons as long as I tune things right.

Nitrous you say? No no no no no!

[DeVillish]

this is great, i was hopping you'd really be doing this. If i wasnt in japan i'd be working on a turbo coupe deville. alot of cars run turbos with no intercooler so that shouldnt be a problem. and if you find you need one i'd run to a junk yard and look for a turbo lebaron or dodge daytona, or even an eclipse for a nice little intercooler. bring on the pics!

[illumina]

Originally Posted by DeVillish

this is great, i was hopping you'd really be doing this. If i wasnt in japan i'd be working on a turbo coupe deville. alot of cars run turbos with no intercooler so that shouldnt be a problem. and if you find you need one i'd run to a junk yard and look for a turbo lebaron or dodge daytona, or even an eclipse for a nice little intercooler. bring on the pics!

Yes, the pics will be here soon, I just have to become a paying member so I can get more space.

The intercoolers around these parts go like wildfire dude. But there are also pleny of the aforementioned cars around the junk yards here, so I might just get one for the hell of it.

[caddydaddy]

Originally Posted by illumina

I just don't want people telling me to buy a ready made fast car like a Vette or something. I have been looking into this project because it's something different from the crowd...She'll be a killer when she's done!

That's what Hot Rodding is all about! Rich people go out and buy new fast cars, hot rodders build thier own! Everyone thinks I'm kinda crazy trying to make a muscle car out of my '79 Sedan Deville. But with motivation from a built 472, it helps to make it a fast car!
More power to you, can't wait to see how your Turbo 4.9 comes out!

[91TexasSeville]

GM-3 IHI 6.5 liter diesel turbocharger. It is used and will probably need a rebuild in the bearing area You can almost count on that!

This will be for the 4.9 liter '91 Seville. She has run low 15's in the 1/4 mile, so I know she has what it takes. Not bad for a stock luxury car! Especailly when all the torque is at the low end of the RPM range!

As it stands right now, I may be looking at a nice 75 hp increase from the turbo on 4-6 psi of boost That is a very reasonable estimate provided you can manage the fuel.

That's what Hot Rodding is all about! No denying that!

[chuckdobbins]

Finally some details on this project. You've had my attention for months on this one, so its great to see you're finally giving it a go. I'm not doubting you in any way, shape, or form...but I can't help but shake my head and crack a smile. Simply cuz the principle of it all. I wish you the best of luck and results for you on this one.

Originally Posted by 91TexasSeville

As it stands right now, I may be looking at a nice 75 hp increase from the turbo on 4-6 psi of boost That is a very reasonable estimate provided you can manage the fuel.

That seems to be the one problem I'll be interested to see you work out as well. I'm quite certain you will, I just wanna see it done.

[illumina]

Originally Posted by 91TexasSeville

GM-3 IHI 6.5 liter diesel turbocharger. It is used and will probably need a rebuild in the bearing area You can almost count on that!

Yes, the turbocharger cost me $76.00 and will likely need a rebuild, but I couldn't pass it up. The seller claims a little bit of side play with no end play whatsoever, which is good. His rating is 99.9% positive out of 850 or so in feedback, so I'm likely to get a good deal...That's the trick with Ebay though...

The turbocharger will also include the stock heat shield, the oil return line, oil feed line, intake adapter, and down pipe among other things.

This will be for the 4.9 liter '91 Seville. She has run low 15's in the 1/4 mile, so I know she has what it takes. Not bad for a stock luxury car! Especailly when all the torque is at the low end of the RPM range!

This will be the Warner-Ishi GM3 turbocharger. I would have preffered the GM5 or newer, but the price was right and the similarities are pretty close.

I've been eyeballing these Warner-Ishi turbochargers ever since I seen the Fiero folks use the GM4 Warner-Ishi. From what I can tell, they are basically the same except for the waste gate design. There is no need for water cooling with these turbochargers either: they don't have any water passages in them.

With the smallish amout of boost I'll be attempting, I can be rest assured that the higher RPM band will benifit in the form of madness.

As it stands right now, I may be looking at a nice 75 hp increase from the turbo on 4-6 psi of boost That is a very reasonable estimate provided you can manage the fuel.

This is the main factor on my mind. I can get the turbocharger rigged easily, but fuel management will be plum HARD. I am going to use the Megasquirt system for now, unless someone can lead me to a hacked version of the Cadillac ECM. If I could get inside the Caddy ECM, I could just go for fuel enrichment or whatever you call it. As it stands right now, the Megasquirt system uses a 2-bar MAP, which will make things a bit easier.

I am also going to use the MSD boost timing controll system in conjunction with my MSD digital-6 ignition. I believe that detonation will be easily taken care of through that...I hope.

I am also going to buy a knock sensor from Jegs. It should be able to plug into one of the water drain holes in the block...

That's what Hot Rodding is all about! No denying that!

Damn skippy!

So far this is the cost of the project in the infant stages (purchased items):

GM3 Warner-Ishi turbocgarger: $76.00.
MSD boost timing controll system: $180.00.
Deville exhaust manifolds, both sides: $20.00.
Deville cross-over tube: $10.00.
Extra exhaust hardware: TBA.
MSD auxiliary fuel pump: $75.00.
Auxiliary fuel injectors (Bosch style): Free (I've had them for a while from another car I was working on at the time).
Alternate auxiliary fuel injectors (TBI system from an '88 Deville): Free (see comment above).

Additional items not yet purchased:

Megasquirt: $140.00 (I have to build it myself).
Knock sensor: $140.00.
Stand-alone adjustable wastegate: TBA (I'm scanning Ebay for this one too).
By-pass valve: TBA (see above comment).

If I'm forgetting something, feel free to add into the list.

I was considering an intercooler, but from what a few turbo people (one is here too), I may not need one for the low amounts of boost I'll be running.

Please keep in mind too that this setup will be going ON AN EXISTING ENGINE/TRANSAXLE COMBO! I am well aware of the dangers here. I am using the existing setup for tuning of the second stage of this turbocharger project. From all indications though, my engine will not be the limiting factor, but the transmission will. We'll see in a few months when stage 1 is complete...

Also, pictures will not be ready until I either become a paying member or I open up a new web site that will be dedicated to me

[91TexasSeville]

I am going to use the Megasquirt system for now, unless someone can lead me to a hacked version of the Cadillac ECM. Megasquirt is probably your best resource at this time so that you will be able to see your project materialize. Even if you do find a Cadillac ECM hack, how likely would it be trouble free? Heck, I've had problems with known good Ford SVT Lightning hacks, chip mods, and they are relatively easy to come by. I drive my Cadillac's, race the Fords, but there is nothing wrong with racing Cadillac's and driving a Lincoln either...*LOL

Please keep in mind too that this setup will be going ON AN EXISTING ENGINE/TRANSAXLE COMBO! I am well aware of the dangers here As long as you understand the weakest point will be the transaxle, you are almost there. I would make a few runs with the stock gear ratio before I attempted to add more stress on the final drive. As you well know your first 60ft will be critical and tire spin will be a problem. Drag radials will amplify getting the torque to the ground if it is not lost in the torque converter first. That would be my biggest challange above all else.

[danbuc]

It's sounds like everything is starting to come together now. Won't be long before you post some timeslips I hope. Once you get started on the project, maybe you could open a page on cardomain or something so you can update us with new pics and stuff. Kind of like was CustomGTP did with his project. Good Luck with it, this should be quite the project.

[HippieD9]

How is clearance/bracketry/ducting? What are you using for the extra fuel injection? What about a 4.5L TB? I've got so many questions!

Peace,
D.