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139K views 238 replies 45 participants last post by  Capt Fiero 
#1 · (Edited)
Okay folks, it's getting close to crunch time with the turbocharger...Had you thinking, huh?

Anyways, this project is still a little off from actually starting, but I now have most of the pieces in place for the project to begin.

4.9 turbocharger, stage one indicates that the turbo will be placed on an existing engine/transmission combo without an actual rebuild. I will be running no more than 6 psi of boost, and will try to get away with not using an intercooler. We'll see how it works out. I am well aware what this might mean for my engine and tranny, but I feel that it will be good for tuning purposes in the long run for the second stage...

The 4.9 turbocharger, stage two, will include the 4.9 liter Cadillac engine (4.5 was considered for a split second) with ported/polished heads and intake; possibly more cam; new moly-chrome piston rings and general rebuild specifications. Overall, the stage two engine will be pumping around 260hp/300lb.ft naturally aspirated. I will add about 8 psi of intercooled boost which will make the engine perform in the 360hp range...I hope.

The second stage transaxle will be rebuilt and bullit proof and I will attempt to have a 3.73:1 final drive ratio. I have to study the tranny more, but I hope I can make those aforementioned changes.

So back to stage one. I have the following items for this project:

GM-3 IHI 6.5 liter diesel turbocharger. It is used and will probably need a rebuild in the bearing area, but for $76.00, I couldn't pass it up. I'll let everyone know if it needs a rebuild or not when I get it next week via UPS.

I have the MSD boost timing controll system with an MSD digital-6 ignition. These items will help combustion and timing while under boost.

I have two Deville exhaust manifolds (front and rear) and a cross-over pipe. They need some welding and an adapter fabricated for the turbo to attach to, but this won't be an issue...I hope.

Auxiliary fuel system minus the actual controlls (piggy-back ECM). I am going to do one of two things here: use an old TBI system for extra fuel needs; or I will make a new fuel log and use two or more auxiliary fuel injectors for fuel needs. An extra fuel pump and some cutting will be necessary, but they're taken care of...Minus the cutting of the fuel tank.

I am going to go with the Megasquirt system for now, which will set me back by a couple hundred (actually $140.00 for the complete DIY kit)...Unless someone hacks the Caddy ECM before I purchase it.

Extra exhaust tubing. I have plenty around in the garage I have just rented. It shouldn't be an issue.

That's it for now as far as supplies. I will also add a bypass valve so that the boost won't blow anything up when I take the pedal off the floor. And perhaps an electronic wastegateb to keep good controll of the boost I'll be running, which will be considered a rather small amount...We'll see how that works out.

As for the general reader: there are only a select few people here on this form who's technical advice will be heeded. They know who they are, and are welcome to help me out if possible. If you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say it: this is my project and I'll won't listen to your negatron views! :nyanya:

I am not concerned if people think this is a crazy idea: I don't care and if you don't have any good technical advice, read on...If you decide to flame or otherwise put this project down, I simply will not respond: your opinion won't even be considered valid. If you have valid advice and/or comments, type away. Remember, this is a community project that everyone will enjoy in the end. People want to see this done and IT WILL BE DONE!

That's it for now. This thread will be here for a while, and may even get burried due to my personal time constraints, but I'll keep everyone posted and will post pics of the items and project as soon as I recive more space for attachments.
 
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#178 ·
fierowrench said:
Illumina,
You meet some of the most interesting people in a junkyard. LOL.
Let me know if you have an intake available that I can butcher.
email fierowrench@hotmail.com
Hijack Over.
Rich
I certainly have one that I kept from an engine that I put into my '87 Seville. I used the original 4.1 hardware for the rest of the swap.

I should be at my garage either tomorrow or Sunday to determine what year it came out of. I am really leaning towards '88, as I recall the engine came from an '88 Deville, but that was over a year ago...

Either way, even if the Throttle bores are different, I would guess that you could still determine what needs done to your setup by the one that I have if needs be.

I'll also email you once I get a look at it this weekend.

Take care, Mike.
 
#180 ·
Mahalaleel said:
This is pretty fascinating, is this still going on?

Mmmm turbo'd 4.9
It is still part of my plans, but certainly not in the timeframe that I had invisioned at first...In other words, it'll be a while before it is finished, but will be done. Hopefully I'll get it at least physically started by spring, and depending on my repairs to my '89 Deville, maybe sooner, I just don't know...

All that is needed is the Megasquirt (+/- $150.00) and a turbo rebuild kit (+/- $120.00). It's just that with the winter beating down here in Ohio and my schooling, time is hard to come by, especially with the more important projects that I have going on. Money too since I have a girlfrined :hide: :D
 
#181 ·
As an addition to this thread, the maximum flow on the compressor side is 17.5 m3/min or roughly 630 cfm. You need roughly 150 CFM per 100 HP and with your motor could easily see 400+ HP at minimal boost.

I have so many projects going on right now and haven't had time to even think let alone work on a compressor map. I will though.
 
#183 ·
I'm still around and was curious how your project is going?

A recent dyno with the GM8 on 4 psi gave this:


And that was using a 1.6 Honda engine (Civic). The plan is to start off low to get baselines and go from there. The eventual plan is 20~24 psi but 220~230hp is plenty for 4 psi at the moment.
 
#185 ·
N0DIH said:
Illumina! Check this out! http://www.microsquirt.info/

This might be just the ticket for additional fuel needed!
That seems like a good deal there...

So far we have the following for fueling:

MSD fuel pump booster with inline fuel pump,
Megasquirt fuel management system,
Microsquirt fuel management system (I'm not real clear on if this works along side the Megasquirt or if it's a standalone system),
XFC fuel management system...

Those are the fuel controllers. Notice how I didn't mention the use of auxiliary injectors? That is the big goal: to have the stock injection system supply the fuel (larger injectors however are required along with my FPR that understands boost).

Now all that is needed is to cross-shop these systems in depth and make a selection...

If anyone else has any good ideas for this, please feel free to post them here!
 
#186 ·
You know, you could do something that runs stock Cadillac until boost happens and then somehow transition over the Megasquirt (parallel injector drivers? FET switches on injectors to switch to MS?) to do boosted throttle power and timing events. The PCM on the 4.9L may not ever know at WOT, as long as it sees all is ok when you are back off of it.
 
#187 ·
N0DIH said:
You know, you could do something that runs stock Cadillac until boost happens and then somehow transition over the Megasquirt (parallel injector drivers? FET switches on injectors to switch to MS?) to do boosted throttle power and timing events. The PCM on the 4.9L may not ever know at WOT, as long as it sees all is ok when you are back off of it.
From what I understand, the XFC will be the ticket for allowing that without even running extra injectors. All that is needed is to run with an boost-referenced FPR (which I have) and the normal timing controlls and such.

If I go the Megasquirt way, I'll have to add an injector or two, but the price deal is sweat for those systems...

So far, the XFC is on top of my wish list.
 
#188 ·
I would look at going with the XFC with Stage II, and just toss in larger injectors for stage one. Something like V6 injectors (GN Regal are like 30#/hr) would give enough, and then we can look at tricking the PCM into thinking it is at WOT anytime boost is present, which would trigger PE mode (drop MAP to 0 and WOT told to the PCM). This is very similar to what the Turbo carb'd 231's and 301's did. They boost referenced a valve that if boost was present, it killed the vacuum under the primary metering rods, so they went up and went to full enrichment.
 
#189 ·
I figured I'd bring this up since there is/was some confusion as to what the Borg Warner IHI RHC6 GM1-8 compares to when comparing any of them to a Garrett TO4B or TO4E.

The IHI RHC6 GM8 measures 2.756" major diameter and 1.968" minor diameter on the compressor wheel. There are NO minor diameters of TO4E that measure 1.968". The closest you would get would be the TO4E 40 trim which measures 1.870"...BUT..the major diameter is 2.950". A difference of a finger nail on each side...quite a difference in percentage and overall flow potential.

Now moving on to what is closest- The TO4B S which measures 2.750" major and 1.904" minor.

Here is the TO4B S which has a max choke flow of 37 lbs/min or roughly 17.7 m³/min which equates to roughly 625 CFM. Take the rules of 150 CFM per 100 hp and you'll see that the TO4B S is capable of enough flow for 300~500+ hp.



Now onto more facts courtesy of IHI. The closest current compressor map that you'll find is located here:



But this is for the latest series of IHI turbos which aren't ancient and weren't made in the 90's. The updated (ie current) version of the RHC6 family is the RHE61 which is the same frame, same size, same everything except 2000'ish rather than 90'ish.

Note that the airflow rate for the RHE61 is 3.3 m³/min - 17.7m³/min or 116.5- 618 CFM. Now that we've gotten that taken care of, we'll move onto the actual flow maps. Here is the entire updated family of IHI turbos:



Note that the RHE61 barely passes the 20m³/min mark and that spooling the turbo that fast would be the equivalent of trying to boost a VJ11 to 30 psi. As said, the choke flow is 17.5 m³/min.

What does this all mean? Why and I posting pictures of turbos that aren't the turbo in question? Glad you asked.

Here is the archaic RHB3-RHC9 compressor maps:



The RHC6 family tops out at 17.5 m³/min or 620 CFM.





As far as the turbine, the GM8 measures 2.420" major and 2.030" minor. GM3 appears to be somewhat larger on both the compressor and minor turbine wheel. GM3 measures 2.150" minor on the turbine wheel.

The measurement for the GM8 would be closest to a Garrett Stage 1 turbine which measures 2.319" major 1.918" minor.

Measurements for Garrett turbines are as follows:

Stage 1- 2.319" major, 1.918" minor
Stage 2- 2.559" major, 2.122" minor
Stage 3- 2.559" major, 2.229" minor
Stage 5- 2.798" major, 2.439" minor

N- 2.922" major, 2.071" minor
O- 2.922" major, 2.296" minor
P- 2.922" major, 2.544" minor
Q- 3.111" major, 2.693" minor

The GM1-8 has the same T3 footprint (inlet flange) so any T3 inlet flange will work. You can usually track these down for less than $100 on eBay. Secret jewel that many haven't found out about yet and unscrupulous aftermarket companies like SSAutocrap haven't started duping yet.

FYI-There are already fake Holset, Cummins, Peterbilt floating around. I've even seen a fake John Deere in the shop.

Anyways, just an FYI. Use for whatever.
 
#191 ·
Thanks bro! But I have another turbo project going on now: replacing the 4T60-E Turbo-Hydramatic transaxle in my car...:(

Anywho, thanks for the information, and post more if you have it!
 
#192 ·
Keep us posted on when the turbo swap will resume and how well the 3.33 4T60E swap/buildup goes. That thing is gonna be a rocket. IF you can ever get traction.....

You'll be chasing down those pesky Mustangs and Ricers and they won't know what just blew them away... V8 Turbo baby!

illumina said:
Thanks bro! But I have another turbo project going on now: replacing the 4T60-E Turbo-Hydramatic transaxle in my car...:(

Anywho, thanks for the information, and post more if you have it!
 
#193 ·
N0DIH said:
Keep us posted on when the turbo swap will resume and how well the 3.33 4T60E swap/buildup goes. That thing is gonna be a rocket. IF you can ever get traction.....

You'll be chasing down those pesky Mustangs and Ricers and they won't know what just blew them away... V8 Turbo baby!
Hehehehehe :lildevil:

Guess what? I just recieved the Transtar Deluxe rebuilt kit (via UPS), the Trans-Go shift kit, and the 2100 RPM stall converter, all for $375! The rebuild kit includes Kolene 2nd clutch steels and the entire kit has Borg-Warner red-frictions, steels, gaskets, filter, vacuum modulator, and other goodies. I'm just a tad stoked about this, can you tell? :bouncy:

Now here's the big trick: the place I got all of this stuff from offers 33/37 drive chain sprockets with the shaft included. Add the chain and it's about $110 total, and this will make my FDR a nice 3.73:1...:stirpot:

I have already decided to go for the Engineered Performance LSD, which will set me back about $600, but I'll likely have it within the month, which all depends on when I start tearing into the tranny (which depends on when the ATSG comes to me).

I'll post a picture thread of this whole thing with all the details...And the details of the engine build-up I'm doing instead of the turbo (just for now).
 
#195 ·
I've actually had a slight change of heart as well. The engine that I'd be using this on is much smaller than yours. The stock exhaust housing is a T3 footprint and is roughly the same size as the standard T3 housings. My redline is 6,000 rpm and my engine is a 2.2. I'll actually be converting the GM to a hybrid of sorts. I'll use an RHB6 turbine with the RHC6 center cartridge, RHC6 compressor wheel and compressor housing and an RHB5 exhaust housing. My attempt will be to minimize lag time being that I have a smaller engine but still be able to take full advantage of the larger compressor wheel. My goals are 350 hp on an engine that makes 145hp in stock form.
 
#197 ·
Wow, sorry for the delay folks, but I've been very very busy with other things like school and work, as well as a blown transmission in the car that is getting the forced induction.

That said, I am doing what I can to get back on this project, so please hold on a little longer, and all of you may be pleasently surprised.
 
#199 ·
I have been wondering myself. I keep accumulating 4T60E/4T65E trans info, you'll need it for a turbo for sure.... Did you get the LSD in the 4T60E yet? I wanna see a front wheel burn out with both tires..... In a Cadillac!
 
#201 ·
I must reiterate what I said much earlier in the thread. The idea isn't to make it a highly refined turbo 4.9L. The stock block/rotatingassy/pistons can't handle it. You will blow it apart. The only way it will survive with this high compression without changing it is to make it a POORLY matched turbo/engine. This isn't optional unless you are tearing down the engine and beefing the snot out of it. You are dealing with a weak crank, cast pistons, non o-ringed head gaskets, aluminum block, no knock sensor, no PCM management, etc.

So with the high compression, a larger than it should be turbo is needed. You need to let the engine make the cyl pressure at low rpms, and let the turbo make up for weak camshaft at higher rpms. You NEVER ever want to overrev it, you never want to get more than 6 or so PSI boost with a stock cast piston. Heck, the LT1 shatters pistons with the pistons it has over 6 psi.

So, ensure you are NOT well matched. You do NOT want boost early, you want it later. Remember that Illumina has this planned in stages. Stage 1 is like this, Stage 2, however, it gonna be fun!!! Then we can match it all up well and make it a killer engine. IF the block and heads can take it.....
 
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