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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread. in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Originally Posted by illumina I went with the GM3 for two reasons: 1.) Cheap. 2.) The Fiero guys used the ...
  1. #76
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by illumina
    I went with the GM3 for two reasons:

    1.) Cheap.

    2.) The Fiero guys used the similar GM4 on theirs and ran 12.27 on 6-7 psi...They modded their 4.9 liter to get the 12 second quarter mile, but even before then the used engine without mods and 3.13:1 gears (modded 440T4 tranny) with a posi was running low 13's.

    Tom, great links dude They are doing the same thing I am doing: a budget turbocharger project. I am likely going to join their forum for extra input.
    Not trying to hijack your thread, but I'm wondering if you've done any measuring to date? Perhaps used the links I posted?

    I have a GM3 as well and have sperated the compressor side from the center section as well as the exhaust elbow from the exhaust side. My plan is to measures both the turbine and compressor wheel trim as well as the A/R of the compressor side and exhaust housing. Hopefully, then I'll be able to come up with some sort of theoretical compressor map to tell where the turbo is most efficient.

  2. #77
    illumina's Avatar
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CallMeCrazy
    Not trying to hijack your thread, but I'm wondering if you've done any measuring to date? Perhaps used the links I posted?

    I have a GM3 as well and have sperated the compressor side from the center section as well as the exhaust elbow from the exhaust side. My plan is to measures both the turbine and compressor wheel trim as well as the A/R of the compressor side and exhaust housing. Hopefully, then I'll be able to come up with some sort of theoretical compressor map to tell where the turbo is most efficient.
    Not sure of the exact measurements, but the GM3 is somewhere around the .53/.63 trim on the compressor/turbine sides respectively. Though smaller by some standards, this turbo fits into the scheme of the low RPM 4.9 liter and the cam setup. Power should build around 2800 or so and continue on through shift at 4900 RPM's based on stock tranny tables.

    Quite simply, I am using this turbocharger based on two things:

    a.) Cheap and available,
    b.) When PBJ on the Pennock Fiero forums did his turbocharged 4.9 liter, he used the GM4 which is very similar to the GM3 I've already bought and will use on this project. Period.

    The only thing I am currently concerned about is fuel. I now know what I am likely going to do for extra fuel, but I need more research on the method I have planned.

  3. #78
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Looking at the turbo itself, it appears to be roughly the same size on the exhaust turbine as the .63 Garrett T3. But, I haven't seperated the center section from the exhaust side yet (rust):rolleyes2

    I still have to deal with two rusted bolts in the center cartrdige that seem to be stripping. Untill I get thse removed, I can't even think about seperating the exhaust side from the center cartridge

    Once I get these two removed, I'll do what I've done with all of the othert IHI's that I've rebuilt, swap them out for shorter length bolts. For some odd reason, IHI likes to use bolts that won't completely come out without first starting to seperate the center section. Once you have enough slack, the bolt will come all the way out.

    Pictures of what I mean can be found in a similar IHI found in my thread here:
    http://www.mx6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102559 -look half way down.

    I have measured the compressor wheel and it is quite larger than my .60 Garrett T3.

    I'll get you the exact numbers for the compressor wheel at least tommorrow. Oh, and I'll throw in some pictures for good measure

  4. #79
    illumina's Avatar
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CallMeCrazy
    Looking at the turbo itself, it appears to be roughly the same size on the exhaust turbine as the .63 Garrett T3. But, I haven't seperated the center section from the exhaust side yet (rust):rolleyes2

    I still have to deal with two rusted bolts in the center cartrdige that seem to be stripping. Untill I get thse removed, I can't even think about seperating the exhaust side from the center cartridge

    Once I get these two removed, I'll do what I've done with all of the othert IHI's that I've rebuilt, swap them out for shorter length bolts. For some odd reason, IHI likes to use bolts that won't completely come out without first starting to seperate the center section. Once you have enough slack, the bolt will come all the way out.

    Pictures of what I mean can be found in a similar IHI found in my thread here:
    http://www.mx6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102559 -look half way down.

    I have measured the compressor wheel and it is quite larger than my .60 Garrett T3.

    I'll get you the exact numbers for the compressor wheel at least tommorrow. Oh, and I'll throw in some pictures for good measure
    Thanks for posting that rebuild thread dude I have to rebuild this turbocharger before I install it on to the car.

  5. #80
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Well, one VERY im portant thing to remember is that the rebuild thread is NOT a GM3. It's still an IHI but a very small IHI. The RHB5 VJ11. It's a dwarf in comparison to the GM3. There isn't much info made available by IHI for their turbochargers, which was what lead me to your thread in the first place. As I said, I found it on a random google search and any and all of the info I have found has been sketchy at best.

    I'm still trying to figure out the actual product number for the GM3. It is still an RH (right hand or forward rotating) series but I have yet to find factual data on which series it is.

    IHI uses codes in there turbos for the year of manufacture, the RHB5 series is from the late 80's and was replaced by the RHF series.

    I'm trying to find out if the GM3 is an RHC6 or RHF6. I also haven't confirmed whether or not the center cartridge is ball bearing or floating bearing. I was hoping you'd know?

    But without further ado (sp?) I have opened the turbo and taken measurements!

  6. #81
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Here is a comparison with a .60/.63 A/R Garette T3. However it has a trim of 70 on the exhaust side. So 60 trim cold side, 70 trim hot side with an A/R of .60 on the cold side and an A/R of 63 on the hot side:



    I had a hell of a time seperating the center sectionf rom the exhaust side. Half from rust, half from a poor construction by IHI themselves:



    ^ They don't exactly make it easy to remove the bolts



    But luckily I found/MADE a cure:



    Now if Craftsmen made one like this, lol:



    You have to sneak it in there and lossen as much as you can:



    Use a hammer (BTW, I don't suggest my method as a metal hammer will easily crack cast iron and you'll find yourself SOL):



    Once you get the center section to budge from the exhaust side, you can start to unthread the bolts the rest of the way:



    Unthread, tap, unthread, tap, untill you can get them all the way out.

    The you'll be left with the center section. I compared it to my .60/.63 A/R T3. The exhaust turbine on the Garrett is 70 trim by the way (quite large):



    Notice that the GM3 turbine is much larger ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  7. #82
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Now for the good stuff:



    54.60mm ^



    61.50mm ^

    So, 54.60^2X 61.50^2 gives us a trim of 79 on the turbine.

    So, it has a cold side trim of 53 and a hot side trim of 79.

    I still have to take measurements of the exhaust and compressor side to come up with an A/R for both. When I find out, I will definately post it as it will help both of us.

    My plan is to try and find a turbocharger of similar measurements and come up with a hypothetical/guesstimate of the GM3's compressor map.

    I hope this helps!!!

  8. #83
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    hey dood, look what I found:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...979019126&rd=1 -link won't last due to it being eBay

    Anyways: the GM3 is an RHC6:
    http://www.completeturboservice.com/...diesellist.pdf

    And here is a breakdown of what you/I are dealing with:


  9. #84
    2-tone is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    well I've been away for a while so I will re-introduce myself. my name Is Bill and I have a Fiero with a 4.9 crate motor powering it along with a 5-speed. been watching this thread to see how you guys are doing turboing this motor. thinging along the same lines. looks like you are thinging of useing a TBi throddle body on the pfi intake to add two exrra injectors to feed the extra fuell needed too feed this beast. should be able to use the service port off the fuel rail with a after market fuel pressure regulator to cut the pressure back for the TBI injectors. found this after market ECU called Haltech that should be able to control everything for this mod. In other words fuel, timeing and boost. site says that it is PC adjustable . I'm gonna look into it more as time allowes. I'll keep an eye on this post. if you find anything out on this please post it.-B-

  10. #85
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Welcome back! That Fiero has to be a blast to drive!

    I am at a disadvantage, as I don't have an computer controlled HEI car anymore, and I would like to get some measurements on the EST Bypass line to see what sort of input the ECM sends to it. Is it a PWM (pulse width modulated waveform, logic high, logic low, is it an active high or active low squarewave, etc) or it is a voltage, or what? I have been wanting to tap into that line and see what I can do to tweak with timing. If we can use a stand alone ESC module like the Buick 3.8L V6 Eng Code "A" used, we might be able to have something for ping control that is OEM and cheap. You would need to have a knock sensor that is tuned for an aluminum block engine. Maybe an LS1 sensor?? And maybe when it starts to ping, we can use it to trigger more fuel if in a boosted condition.

    If boost = yes, then add x% more fuel
    else, pull back timing only

  11. #86
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I found something that is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND, the compressor pressure ratio/flow sheet for the RH series of turbo's from IHI:



    Granted it's in Dutch? but the numbers still translate the same. I am now one step closer to figuring out an actual compressor map for this turbo

    NEXT STEP IS-FUN WITH MATH :banghead2

    http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech103.html

  12. #87
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I also found out that it is indeed an RHC6 and is a "floating bearing" type rather than ball bearing. Here is a site that sells rebuild kits for $128:http://www.turboparts.info/pages/634...=1105969278977

    If you aren't confident in rebuilding it, you can always send it my way and I'll do it for you.

  13. #88
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    How is your project coming a long? I just finished building my engine so the turbo will be next:
    http://photos.yahoo.com/nhbrhdsnpr/

  14. #89
    illumina's Avatar
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CallMeCrazy
    How is your project coming a long? I just finished building my engine so the turbo will be next:
    http://photos.yahoo.com/nhbrhdsnpr/
    Dude, I ain't done shit with the car that I've been wanting to do...

    Today for instance, I had to replace the water pump gasket because it had blown a hole the size of dime through the bottom. I figured this out while driving home from work last night when the car almost over-heated. So I shut that damn thing down, and once she cooled, the starter was overheated (problem as of late) and I had to wave down some help to tap start the damn thing! So while I was replacing the water pump gasket, I had noticed that there is a fine crack in the front-bank exhaust manifold, which is the apparent cause of the starter overheating...

    So now I have to replace the following:

    a.) Starter,
    b.) Exhaust manifold,
    c.) Lower coolant pipe (rigged like Hell right now until this weekend),
    d.) Grill (someone hit-skiped my car),
    e.) Headlight housing (see above),
    f.) Bumper stop (that thing that protrude out from the bumper around the license plate area)(see above once more).

    Sorry for the ranting, but the turbocharger project will be on hold until I have the car back to somewhat better condition...

    But on a good note, the only thing I do not have for the turbo project is a working auxiliary fuel management system...I pretty much know what I want, but just need to get the system...

  15. #90
    formula2m8 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Illumina,

    I've been reading around here for a while (finally decided to join), and have been looking forward to watching your project move forward. Sorry to hear about the recent problems.

    I have a bone-stock 4.9 that I'm installing in an 88 and was wondering a few things. Hopfully, you guys might be able to help me out.

    First, I've read a few things about a turbo'd 4.9 that does "12.2" in the quarter. Does anyone here know anything about the custom intercooler setup for this car? It is breifly referenced on the fieroaddiction site, but nothing more. Anyone have the inside scoop on this car? I believe it is using the gm04 turbo. I have a good line on a low-mile gm08....which is supposed to spool quicker than the gm04. I am probably going to pick it up. I'll be using Megasquirt to control it all (waiting for the new release in another month or so).

    That all being said, does anyone have any ideas about intercoolers? I am interested in the custom "air/water" intercooler that I believe the above-referenced car uses.

    Any ideas?

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