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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread. in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; I like the idea of the oil being returned to the pan beatter anyway ....id rather have bits of bearings ...
  1. #46
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I like the idea of the oil being returned to the pan beatter anyway ....id rather have bits of bearings being dumped in the pan rather than sprinkled evenly over the lifters ...has a beatter chance to live thru a catastrophic turbo failure

  2. #47
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by illumina
    1.) Lower RPM's: the turbo I'm using is for a diesel 6.5 liter. It spools at around 2500 RPM's and goes strong until the higher end. With the 4900 RPM shift point on the Seville, The power should be put to damn good use. According to the Fiero guys, this turbocharger is a perfect match for the 4.9 liter...Besides, I don't think I can fit anything larger in there.

    2.) Oil feed is coming from the pressure switch area via a T-fitting. The pressure will go into the turbo and drain just above the oil line in the oil pan...Some drilling will be needed

    3.) Cams? Maybe for "stage 2."

    4.) I've read Corkey Bell's "supercharged" and the book seems to be a wealth of knowledge. Perhaps I should pucker up and drop the $35.00 for turbocharger edition, huh?
    saw that book at sebring ....i almost bought it but i was kinda drunk at the time (honestly) i just remeber looking at it and asking the dude "hey you think i can use this on a old ass caddy?" (he laughed at me when i told him what i had)..i left the rest of my cash in my car on the other side of the track ...only had 20 bucks on me so i could get one more beer and a blooming onoin on the way back to turn 5 ...so i woulda had to have gone back and gotten the cash ..like i was gonna be able to do that ...damit ....but i did get my blooming onoin

    sorry , i just remeber that corkey bell stuff there was like 3 books there , i saw the supercharger , a turbo one and something else ...they were nice books ....best part is those books were beside some on rebuilding the Jag stright six ....i put 2 and 2 togther ..twin turbo jag six ...man thatd be cool

  3. #48
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Well I finally got the turbocharger today. Here are some pictures of the hardware that is in my house as of this moment. I will get more pictures up when I get a chance to go to my garage and collect all of the exhaust pieces that I'll be using...

    The turbo may need new bearings and a wastegate. There is some side-play but no end play, which between the two the side-play is better to have.

    The wastegate could be changed too. Not only for the poor condition but I would also like to use an adjustable one to controll boost (6 psi max for now).

    Before I install the turbo, I will polish it up and make it look good...Sorry, I'm a stickler for neatness...

    Anyways, here is the first picture of "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1."
    Attached Images

  4. #49
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    The wastegate that it has looks to be able to be made adjustable.

    Cut rod, thread each end, and then add a turnbuckle to the middle. Drive and adjust as you need to. Shorter is higher boost if I remember right. Personally, I just tried to bend the rod some to take up some slack, but it didn't change mine any. I need to take out more rod to get the boost higher.

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    You can likely adapt the 301 Turbo or 3.8L Turbo wastegate actuator and it can be made adjustable easily.

    Also, it is a 2 chamber actuator, it has a second side that you attach to manifold vacuum, not the boosted side, before turbo, that will open the wastegate at cruise to slow turbo to decrease backpressure to increase fuel economy. But it also slows turbo speed that will increase the lag a little when you mash the gas.

    I hate the term "turbo lag", as people take it out of proportion. It is a loose term. If you have driven a turbo car, especially a v8, you know this lag is minor and still the car is MUCH faster than a non turbo counterpart. So take it with a grain of salt...

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Hey Illumina the amount of boost before an intercooler is "needed" is TOTALLY a case by case thing. Depending on compression, timing, chamber design, octane, turbo compressor map and quench area the amount of boost you can safely run un-intercooled can vary quite a bit from application to application. If anything it will add power and it will be safer under boost at the cost of, well, being a possible pain to plumb everything up/ more system complexity. I wouldn't use just one 300zx intercooler if one 3.0 turbo car needed 2 of them, especially considering most stock stuff is fairly restrictive. I know you bought a turbo already but a really good one would be an HX35 off a cummins, some 5.0 ford guys use them and they say they are a bit on the small side for a higher revving 5.0 so I figure it would work VERY well on a 4.9 in its power range. BTW a diesel turbo usually has a large turbine housing compared to its compressor housing since diesel's apperently have more exhasut energy than gas engines so thats something to consider when using a diesel tubo on a gas engine. If nothing else before ensuing any further into the project get the most helpful turbo book EVER in existance by Corky Bell "Maximum Boost" I found it EXtremely helpful. Good luck....

  7. #52
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Formula94lt1
    Hey Illumina the amount of boost before an intercooler is "needed" is TOTALLY a case by case thing. Depending on compression, timing, chamber design, octane, turbo compressor map and quench area the amount of boost you can safely run un-intercooled can vary quite a bit from application to application. If anything it will add power and it will be safer under boost at the cost of, well, being a possible pain to plumb everything up/ more system complexity. I wouldn't use just one 300zx intercooler if one 3.0 turbo car needed 2 of them, especially considering most stock stuff is fairly restrictive. I know you bought a turbo already but a really good one would be an HX35 off a cummins, some 5.0 ford guys use them and they say they are a bit on the small side for a higher revving 5.0 so I figure it would work VERY well on a 4.9 in its power range. BTW a diesel turbo usually has a large turbine housing compared to its compressor housing since diesel's apperently have more exhasut energy than gas engines so thats something to consider when using a diesel tubo on a gas engine. If nothing else before ensuing any further into the project get the most helpful turbo book EVER in existance by Corky Bell "Maximum Boost" I found it EXtremely helpful. Good luck....

    Thanks for the input dude

    Right now the project is at a standstill due to time constraints and such, but hopefully this summer things will pick up a bit. Maybe a little sooner than that.

    As for an intercooler, I would just feel better having one, so there is no real biggie in terms of where I am going to place it at and the plumbing associated with it. At the junk yard a few weeks ago I seen a nice intercooler from a Saab, but alas it was too large for where I have plans to put one at.

    My biggest concern remains fuel: I simply don't have the confidence in what system I want to run. One thing for sure is that it will be an auxiliary piggy-back system running along side the stock system. I am getting mixed signals from people as to what a piggy-back system will do when ran in conjunction with the stock system... I have one person hoping that I will choke on Rotella diesel oil (presumably) on this project telling me all kinds of horror stories, so I am a little concerned on how to run this extra fuel without blowing something.

  8. #53
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I have 2 gallons of Rotella T in the trunk if you need help chocking....

    Any thoughts on my piggyback board that uses the existing injectors to trigger the TBI injector (through a driver board) that can simply manage more fuel? You can control it fairly easily, and it would be easy for me to add on additional control to up the fuel as the boost increases.

    Not to mention, this is sort of a "free" intercooler. Remember that adiabatic cooling takes effect when you spray a liquid in the air like this. So it will cool the intake and the intake charge down effectively cooling the whole intake charge. Sort of like a water injector only injecting fuel instead of alky or water. You get the best of both worlds. Do not inject fuel through a real intercooler "BBOOOOOMM" happens..... After....

    Or we can design up an aftercooler design into the intake that doesn't need an intercooler....

  9. #54
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Illumina

    Glad to hear someone is as nuts as me when it comes to stuff like this. I have been off the forum for about 6 months, and was honestly just scavanging for information to do the same thing with my 93 seville (also a 4.9)

    as far as the intercooler, from doing several n/a to turbo conversions in the past, high compression, and high charge air temps are not a good combo. Ultimately I am looking to run somewhere close to 9psi on my car....no flames, i am just slightly nuts. for what you are talking about in stage 1, I would seriously consider looking at water/menthonal injected cooling. it drops the charge temp, and avoids pre-ignition pretty well. An intercooler is great if you are up for dealing with the plumbing, injection is the next best thing, and can be done pretty cheap if you build the system yourself.

    Another thought, if you are interested, I just had the tranny rebuilt and guarnteed to withstand 600ft/lbs of torque, with a true limited slip front diff...what fun is monsterious torque if all you do is blow up one front tire?

    Best of luck on your project, the part i am somewhat stuck on is a clean and straight forward method of getting the extra fuel in.

  10. #55
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Go check this out.... It might give you some idea's, also if you email the guy, he might be able to answer a few questions since he's been through it...

    http://www.msvorinich.itgo.com/

    The guy in the webpage built a junked four cylinder turbo mustang from the ground up using mostly junkyard, home made and basically cheap parts.. He's currently running at 25psi but wants to go to 30+psi... Pretty impressive what he's done.. Go the the tour section and you can see the build from day one...

    He built a massive 3 core intercooler by combining and welding three volvo intercoolers together... He states that the pipe before the intercooler is hot while the pipe after the intercooler going into the intake is chilled. Thats why he is able to run at such high boost on basically a stock engine without blowing the thing up.

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    Please resond after reading next post

  12. #57
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Hey guys, I recently acquired an IHI GM4 turbo for use with my application. IHI makes it pretty hard if not damn near impossible to get anything like compressor maps/flow charts, turbocharger trim, A/R of their turbos. I have managed to find a few charts and random info for IHI turbo's but it's never the info that I need. I bought this turbo from a friend who lives on the other side of the country. I have seen it in pictures but don't have any idea of the actual size of it for comparison and how it will spool with my motoruntill it arrives on my doorstep.

    This is why I was hoping to get some info here from you guys, see I found this thread quite randomly by searching for what seemed like days to find not a whole hell of alot.

    So I'm asking for any info that you guys have on the GM series of Borg Warner tubos, inlet size, outlet size, downpipe size, upgrades for the wastegate? What is the wastegate spring set at from the factory?

    I am no stranger to forced induction and have been tuning cars for the better part of 15 years.

    My mods will include megasquirt with MSD ignition componants, mainly the 6BTM, 440 injectors, possibly a couple Saab/Volvo/Audi cold start injectors set to go at various psi with Hobbs pressure switches. I will also go with a large front mount intercooler with a CO2 spray system for the cooler itself. In the intake I might go with an alcohol injection setup, btu if I can control A/F then I won't need to as my intercooler is quite efficient for it's size.

    As for boost suppliment I will be going with 3" turboback exhaust with no catalytic converter, a Tial external wastegate, and for boost control itself the Greddy Profec B Spec II. from what I gather, I won't be able to push a whole lot of boost, maybe 6-8 psi?

    I have all of the other goodies as well, boost gauge, A/F guage, EGT tapped in my manifold and a flange welded to accept what I think APPEARS to be a T3 inlet flange on the exhaust side of the GM4? I've been ruuning an aiResearch .60/.63 T3 for quite sometime and getting some decent numbers.

    Basically I think have all of my avenues covered, I live close to a couple dyno shops and have access to test and tune for relatively cheap prices as I am good friends with a couple shop owners.

    I ALSO own a Zeitronix wideband O2 sensor so I can monitor A/F realtime.

    Couple side notes this is hopefully going to be going on a 12 V sohc 2.2 4 cyl motor with 7.8:1 compression, 86.50 bore and 94 mm stroke.

    Yeah I know it'll take awhile to spool, but I am no stranger to nitrous as well.

    Any info that you guys might have on this turbo would greatly be appreciated.



    Thanks guys.

  13. #58
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Nitrous and turbos are an awesome match! Intercooler in a bottle!!!

    Watch those intake air temps drop like a rock when the bottle is loose!

    You sound like you are covering all the bases. I have a 1980 Turbo T/A that I got to 14.21@97.3 mph. Before you all tell me how slow that is, that is 4030lbs, 3.08 gears and no ECM, just a simple ESC controller for pinging, a total of 24 degrees mech advance, 7.5 psi boost and the worlds worst cyl heads. And that put nearly 290 hp to the ground. With more boost one night (ok ok, I pulled OFF the wastegate!), unofficially ran past our local 1/4mi marker nudging 110 mph. This was with 100 lbs of tools and 3 people in the car. And yes, I beat the nitrous fed 302 Mustang. Bad. It sure was fun!!!

    Turbos are the ultimate in power adders....

  14. #59
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Hell, I did a Google search and came up on my own damn thread

    To the best of my knowledge, the Warner-Ishi turbochargers in question are a T3/T4 rating at .60/.70...I'm not too sure. I just know that the compressor is quite large while the turbine inlet isn't the largest I've seen. I'll have to dig up my Ebay posting where I bought it from to find the exact specs as I think they're on there somewhere.

    Anyways, my only concern is fuel. I have the MSD BTM and just about everything else, I just don't have the Megasquirt yet, as I'm still trying a couple of places that might be able to work out the problems with my ECM. I've made contact with a link Katshot gave me from "PCM-for-less" and the guy told me that he might be able to do it if I sent him either the car or the ECM...I'll gladly send an ECM: I have a few to give away. But I will not give him the car to tinker with I'll respond back to him and try and get a more specific answer.

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    That .60/.70 is nice to know, especially since there are some members who're running a .70 with the same motor that I intend to do it on, specifically with the IHI VF22 that comes on the older j-Spec Subaru STi. I can't seem to track down info anywhere on trim and A/R, I could and will measure and calulate when it gets here.

    Trim is calculated by dividing the inner diameter by the outer, squared x100:

    (??/??)^2 = 0.??

    Then you'd do the same with the turbine:



    IE:TRIM = ( Dp / Dg )˛ x 100
    Si Dg = 50 mm y Dp = 35 mm
    TRIM = ( 35/50 )˛ x 100 = 49

    A/R howvere is completely different:
    The A/R in a relationship that is obtained when dividing the interior area of the turbine where the inner walls are found, through the turbine housing radio from the center to the tongue, like this:


    If you happen to have the turbo getting dusty in your basement/closet/garage, do you think you could measure it for me?

    I'll be sure to measure mine and post the results when it gets here but AFAIK, the one that I am getting is a GM4. I think you said that you were getting or got a different one? Any idea of the spec differences between the years?

    Wait a minute, I think I just asked you to show me yours if I show you mine

    lol

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