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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread. in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Originally Posted by illumina No. Nitrous is not an option. It will probably kill the bottom end the first time ...
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by illumina
    No. Nitrous is not an option. It will probably kill the bottom end the first time I press the button.

    Turbocharging is a much better option in terms of longevity and efficiency. And besides, nitrous will destroy the stock pistons in these engines on the first run...No No No...Not an option...Beside, nitrous is not real horsepower.

    As it stands right now, I may be looking at a nice 75 hp increase from the turbo on 4-6 psi of boost which will be apparent through a decent range (2500-4500 rpm's) when compared to nitrous. It will not be as tough on the bottom end and pistons as long as I tune things right.

    Nitrous you say? No no no no no!
    With nothing more than a stock 301 Pontiac(with beefy block), a mild .350 lift cam, 250 gross duration, crappy crappy heads with 1.75in/1.5in valves, a very poor designed turbo compressor outlet, a way too small turbo, 2.25in single exhaust, a total of 24 degrees mech timing, a 800 CFM Q-jet , and a old pellet tpe catalytic could make 210 hp. And with minor mods (K&N, but stock ar cleaner), upped timing (mech and initial) and cat removed, (yes, a pellet type) cold make 290 rear wheel hp with only 7.5 psi boost, imagine what can happen to a properly setup Cadillac 300 CID V8?!?!?!?

    Heck, even an improperly one can make 300 hp easy!!!

    Turbos respond to mods very well, sorta like a multiplier not just an adder!

    Tom

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by N0DIH
    With nothing more than a stock 301 Pontiac(with beefy block), a mild .350 lift cam, 250 gross duration, crappy crappy heads with 1.75in/1.5in valves, a very poor designed turbo compressor outlet, a way too small turbo, 2.25in single exhaust, a total of 24 degrees mech timing, a 800 CFM Q-jet , and a old pellet tpe catalytic could make 210 hp. And with minor mods (K&N, but stock ar cleaner), upped timing (mech and initial) and cat removed, (yes, a pellet type) cold make 290 rear wheel hp with only 7.5 psi boost, imagine what can happen to a properly setup Cadillac 300 CID V8?!?!?!?

    Heck, even an improperly one can make 300 hp easy!!!

    Turbos respond to mods very well, sorta like a multiplier not just an adder!

    Tom
    Of course there are those naysayers that will tell me that I should just pucker up and buy a mid-'90's Vette and be done with it...I will promptly tell them to bite me...

    Yup. I think with 6 psi I can see around 75 hp, particularly on the top end power band, which is where the 4.9 will need it. I am probably going to get an intercooler from Stoney, but I would prefer to have some measuements before I shell out any cash on shipping.

    The only thing about the intercooler that he has is it seems to be a tad small. But in all honesty, smaller is better than nothing. And from what I understand, if you run too small of an intercooler, it will lower boost levels...N0DIH, is that true? If this is the case, I would think that would be good to controll boost with the particular turbocharger I am using.

    If I need more boost, a mechanical boost controller can do the trick at around $25.00...Just dial in the regulator and go. I wish it would be able to lower boost, but from what I understand, I will need an external wastegate to do that. The device I am goinmg to order just increases it due to the fixed nature of the stock Warner-Ishi wastegate...If you know of another way to controll boost cheap (as in lower it), let me know.


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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by illumina
    Of course there are those naysayers that will tell me that I should just pucker up and buy a mid-'90's Vette and be done with it...I will promptly tell them to bite me...
    Rock On Mike!
    What is the fun of buying a car that is already fast or sporty? The people telling you that are absolutely clueless! They have no idea why you are doing this project. No imagination, no creativity, no curiosity!

    I'd love to be on the sidewalk when you pull up to some burned out yuppy in their $100k euro-trash people short in your classy american luxury land yacht with a curiously soothing throaty rumble and blow their doors off at the green light. (not that you would ever participate in street racing or any other ilicit activity) The incredulous look on their pointy faces would be absolutely priceless!

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by illumina
    Of course there are those naysayers that will tell me that I should just pucker up and buy a mid-'90's Vette and be done with it...I will promptly tell them to bite me...

    Yup. I think with 6 psi I can see around 75 hp, particularly on the top end power band, which is where the 4.9 will need it. I am probably going to get an intercooler from Stoney, but I would prefer to have some measuements before I shell out any cash on shipping.

    The only thing about the intercooler that he has is it seems to be a tad small. But in all honesty, smaller is better than nothing. And from what I understand, if you run too small of an intercooler, it will lower boost levels...N0DIH, is that true? If this is the case, I would think that would be good to controll boost with the particular turbocharger I am using.

    If I need more boost, a mechanical boost controller can do the trick at around $25.00...Just dial in the regulator and go. I wish it would be able to lower boost, but from what I understand, I will need an external wastegate to do that. The device I am goinmg to order just increases it due to the fixed nature of the stock Warner-Ishi wastegate...If you know of another way to controll boost cheap (as in lower it), let me know.

    From what i remember on intercoolers ....if you go too big on low boost levels youll end up with some lag ....too small and i belive you hurt velocity ..which i belive may hurt boost also ...
    crap i forgot to measure them when i moved them to storgae ,,,but i can get to them super easy now so ill get that some time ...
    just some info on that ...those intercoolers were off that 300z twin turbo ...so each cooler was cooling off one turbo that was fed by 1.5 litres or half the engines displacemnt (3.0)....so the turbos were only cooling compresed air off what 1.5 litres of engine can produce at around 6k rpm on what i think was a t-25 turbo set at 7-8 psi..but im not sure ....

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I pulled one from the bone yard the other day from a Saab only to find that it was too damn large. I think it would have been perfect for my application too... The other thing is that it only cost $30.00 freakin' dollars! Damn I hate when things that nice don't work out...I wound up taking it back for a refund.

    The only thing that bothers me about your intercooler is the size in the picture. If one serves only 1.5 liters at 7.5 psi, then I don't want to imagine what use it would be for 4.9 liters...I'll have a better idea when you post some specs on it and then I'll take those specs and ask the motorsport shop around here where I stand. If it impedes boost a little, that's ok. But if I lose like 5 psi out of 6, then I'm in some trouble, huh?

    Oh well, I'll be awaiting the results dude. Thanks

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    The only issue I seem to remember from intercooling is too large, lag, too small, boost restrictor. To matching is sort of important. I guess the way to know if determine the airflow going through it. A 3.0L at 6500 rpm (guess here) with 15 psi boost may be the same airflow (guess here!) as a 5.0L and 5 psi. No idea for sure. I will find what I can and post it. Good questions. The GN guys may be able to help. A GN intercooler may work, as it is a single for a 3.8L and 15 psi boost. Sounds like off the top of my head (not balding...) that it might be a closer match. And with it being GM, has that "great GM feeling" Maybe even pass it off as factory SEO option.

    As for impeding boost, the 301 Turbo was BAD for that, the bends and twists were terrible. BUT, it DID make boost at 1200 rpm. Tell me, how many cars out there make boost at 1200 rpm? And full 7.5 psi at 2200 rpm. Note that full stall speed was NEVER reached, the back brakes could never withstand it. Any positive boost was instant tire smoke, and that was lame 3.08 gears! (wimpy 9in rear drums)

    GN guys often sell used factory turbos for cheap, you can get the A/R figures easily from GNTType.org.

    I'll do some digging tonight if I can get on the computer for a bit....

    Let me know what turbo you are playing around with. And look and see what the specs are. And with many turbos, parts like compressor or exhaust housings can be mixed and matched....

    Tom

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    An interesting find!

    A 3.0L engine with 2 turbos and 16 psi boost @ 6600 rpm uses the same turbos as a 5.0L engine at 5000 rpm and 6 psi boost. BOTH with 2 turbos. You need to step up to the 301 Turbo's .82 A/R on that turbo to get enough airflow to run it at a single turbo level.

    Hmmm.....

    The 5.0L engine (@5000 rpm, 6 psi boost, intercooled and 1 turbo) will run around 36.5 lbs air/minute, where the 3000 engine with 2 of them will run around 41 lb/min. According to my calculations adding an intercooler will only add around 30 hp. It really complicates installation. Might not be a good choice for Phase 1. Now, Phase 2....Muhahahahahahaha. If it is easy to install, go for it, but might be an option on the requirements.

    In reality, Pontiac picked dead on the right compressor side for the 301. With too small of a exhaust side (around the 231 CID size). It could flow the air, but the restrictions everywhere were terrible. It is an oil cooled turbo, no water lines to it.

    Run a HD oil for sure, you need every help you can with heat of the oil soaking in the compressor during shutdown. Or some way to cool the oil to it, make a small oil cooler for the oil going to the turbo itself.

    Oil drains from the turbo are critcal. Make them big (like 3/4" to 1"). And get them into the oil pan or somewhere that can get to the oil pan quickly, do not ever dump them into a valve cover! This will overload the head and it will not drain quick enough. Pontiac dumped it into the lifter valley though the lifter valley cover. Pontiacs and Chryslers (B and RB) have had "Air Gap" intakes forever. So it was easy. If there is a place on the intake on the 4.9L that you can drill through to make a clean dump into the valley, I would consider that.

    Oil pressure. Pontiac installed a 70 PSI pump into the 301 Turbo. I don't know on the GN and turbo 3.8's. You will have a large oil "leak" on the main oil galleries with the turbo on there. Upgraded oil systems will be needed. Increased capacity can't hurt, being we already have an external oil cooler we have a good start already. Even a catch can with oil that can "store" it will increase capacity. Diesel semi's have 30+ qts of oil, so capacity galore. At the minimum, a RotellaT/Delvac 15W40 is already designed for HD diesels with turbos. It would likely be a good choice.

    More thoughts brewing....

    Next? ESC....

    Tom

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    With added boost, you may need to mix your own octane booster as well.

    http://www.geocities.com/runyardj/Oc...sters-Info.htm

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I have ordered a GM-3 Warner-Ishi turbocharger for this project off of Ebay. It is oil cooled only and the turbo is fairly large. I don't think it has the .82 A/R, but I'm not for sure...What I do know is that it is a T3/T4 trim: I'll get exact specs when I get it through the mail...It's taking for freakin' ever (from Canada). I'm using this one based on what they did with the Fiero and the same basic turbocharger. The turbocharger is used, but for stage 1, it doesn't need to be all polished and fancy. It just needs to get the job done without falling completely apart.

    For fuel, I will likely use a TBI system from a 4.5 liter for auxiliary fueling: if it can fuel an entire V8 engine with two TBI injectors, why can't it help out in the boost department when ran on a seperate fuel controller such as Megasquirt? I smell a winner here. The only thing I worry about is the lower fuel pressure on that system: any suggestions?

    A GNX intercooler sounds good. However, if you're absolutely sure I don't need one for the 6 psi or lower I'll be running, then I won't bother with it for now. One more time: are you positive I don't need intercooling for the lower boost I'll be running??? I'll take your word on it...

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    as for fuel requirements there is another interesting way of combatting the issue of fuel , air charge temp ....you know that kind of stuff ... in other words take a trip with me back to 1962...
    In 1962, Olds, along with AiResearch, introduced a 'turbocharged' (called Fluid Injection) version of this engine, which put "Turbo Rocket Fluid" (½ distilled water, ½ methyl alcohol) into the carb. Along with a 10.25:1 compression ratio, yielded 0-60 in 8.5 seconds (with the manual tranny). The turbo was a Garrett TO-3 with an integral wastegate, the first. Unfortunately, due to the 10:1 compression ratio, boost was limited to only 5 psi, not the best use of a turbo
    http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofjet.htm
    sounds alot like us doesnt it ....well only 85 cubic inches less .....and cast iron heads ....but hey alum block , under 6 psi ..and a very fragile transmission (those rear mounted units in early tempest/special/jet-starFire cars )

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    6 psi, no you don't. Even at 10 psi you really don't. Higher than that, yes, intercooling is recommended. Typically I think the rule of thumb is 12 and higher.

    The most important thing is knock control above all and sufficient fuel supply (as you are now making HP for a larger engine, and the boost pressure will be the injector tip reference, hence the need for larger injectors to keep the pulse width in line, if you keep it down, you might be ok, but I could keep a close eye on injector pulse width, don't run out of headroom!). And to give additional fuel anytime you are positive pressure.

    I would be concerned with catalytic converters surviving with much of a "lean" mixture (below .87v O2 under boost). They will get hot, enough they could be damaged. That is why GM defaulted so rich on so many cars at WOT. Protection. The thoughts of using a TBI for additional fuel is a good one, maybe the way to go is a modified factory computer or a MegaSquirt with knock control. So it will provide additional fuel and timing retard with good control. I can tell you from experience, turbos will ping badly with lean mixtures. It is death to pistons. It would be an interesting thought to go completely MegaSquirt. Does it support knock sensors? Buick has had a stand alone ESC module that fed the ECM with knock data. Maybe we can decipher what the HEI needs on the EST line to control timing, maybe go to a fixed timing under boost and override the ECM control? Need to find a knock sensor that is "tuned" to the 4.9L. The resonant frequency of the block when pinging is what you need to find and then find a sensor that is on that frequency. Being it is an Alum engine, that may be an interesting find. Heck, maybe evena N* sensor might be close. I have some freqs of some older GM engines (2.8L, 5.0L and 1.8L Turbo somewhere).

    For additional fuel too, you might consider an 9th injector like the GN guys did (they had the 7th....). Create a ckt that will drive it and have a control you can tweak, and maybe even make it variable with boost pressure. That shouldn't be too hard to create. Likely woudn't need a big injector, and having it just after the turbo would enhance the adiabatic cooling effect, further reducing the needs for an intercooler.

    Other things turbos aren't very fond of, tuned intakes (the 4.9L doesn't really have, right?). They will work, but it will make them more peaky. Give them some additional plenum area, this will be your "aftercooler". Check out semi diesel designs, easiest to see on the 6 cyl diesels. Like the Cummins turbo 505 CID inline 6 (I used to drive one from time to time, but my truck was a 855 CID non turbo, 1000+ lb/ft torque @ 1000 rpm). They use a large manifold area AFTER the turbo to create an aftercooling effect. The air gets compressed and is heated (adiabatic cooling/heating), when it is uncompressed, it cools, so the area after the turbo but before the valve is the area you can do some aftercooling in. Immeditately after the turbo, see what you can do to increase the plenum area. It is easier than an intercooler. And less lag. Too large plenum will create some lag too (just like a non turbo engine with too large intake, like a Victor 454 on a 396 with oval port heads...), so don't go overboard.

    But for sure, no intercooler is NEEDED for 6 psi. 12 yes, 6, even 10, I wouldn't waste the deisgn time unless you have unlimted funds and time. As for a specifically designed engine for high output turbo, then I would design it in, more boost and more power Ar ar ar ar..... Not saying the intercooler won't help, it will, but not as much as it would if it was up at 15 psi. The adiabatic heating isn't that much. I'll see if I can find out how much it heats, it is calculatable.

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Here is a post by John Estill (Jdestill) at the link: http://www.gnttype.org/discus/messag...tml?1040003000 in ref to someone wantting to turbo a 350 Chevy.

    Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 02:40 pm
    A couple of things:
    1. First you need to determine a few things: what rpms will you turn, will you add an intercooler or not, and how much boost will you run? Those are the primary items that will determine the size turbo you will need. Do not try to use some random turbo just because you have access to it, it problably won't run like you want it to.

    2. Oil return is a gravity drain. Turbo regals drain back to the lifter valley. Some people run them straight back to the pan. Do not try and return it to a pressurized passage or go through a cooler, that will just back things up.

    3. Cams... Comp Cams has some new turbo specific grinds for SBCs. You may want to look into those.

    4. Corky Bell's book "Maximum Boost" is supposedly a good reference for those wanting to learn about turbo systems (haven't read it myself though). It would probably be well worth your time and money to get it and learn what you can before jumping into a project like this!

    John

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    For timing retard, I have already purchased the MSD boost timing controller. It is a direct hook-up to my MSD digital-6 ignition and shouldn't be that hard to figure in the scheme of the project.

    I like the add-on knock sensor from Jegs at around $150.00. I'm not sure if the Megasquirt (MS) supports or caries a knock sensor, but I'll look into that. I know the Megajolt system does, but not sure about the other.

    Also, the MS system can be an entirely seperate feed-back system with coolant sensors, 02 sensors, TP sensors, and more. It also supports and has a 2-bar MAP sensor built in which should make things a little easier. For the DIY kit, it costs around $150.00...Not too damned bad, so as long as I don't kill myself doing the soldering and such. MS also supplies the software needed and upgrades are freeware I think.

    The TBI system may be the key here: MS can do that system well from what I understand. For an auxiliary fuel system, it should be just fine. If I can get away with putting a higher rated fuel pressure regulator (FPR) on a TBI system, then I'll try by all means. If not, do you think the stock 10 psi (-/+) will work? I can get an adjustable FPR for the TBI system too: I have one on my 4.5 liter transplant '87 Seville and seems to work just fine. However, it will not go to the 65 psi needed in the MPFI system to run a turbocharger.

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by N0DIH
    Here is a post by John Estill (Jdestill) at the link: http://www.gnttype.org/discus/messag...tml?1040003000 in ref to someone wantting to turbo a 350 Chevy.

    Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 02:40 pm
    A couple of things:
    1. First you need to determine a few things: what rpms will you turn, will you add an intercooler or not, and how much boost will you run? Those are the primary items that will determine the size turbo you will need. Do not try to use some random turbo just because you have access to it, it problably won't run like you want it to.

    2. Oil return is a gravity drain. Turbo regals drain back to the lifter valley. Some people run them straight back to the pan. Do not try and return it to a pressurized passage or go through a cooler, that will just back things up.

    3. Cams... Comp Cams has some new turbo specific grinds for SBCs. You may want to look into those.

    4. Corky Bell's book "Maximum Boost" is supposedly a good reference for those wanting to learn about turbo systems (haven't read it myself though). It would probably be well worth your time and money to get it and learn what you can before jumping into a project like this!

    John

    1.) Lower RPM's: the turbo I'm using is for a diesel 6.5 liter. It spools at around 2500 RPM's and goes strong until the higher end. With the 4900 RPM shift point on the Seville, The power should be put to damn good use. According to the Fiero guys, this turbocharger is a perfect match for the 4.9 liter...Besides, I don't think I can fit anything larger in there.

    2.) Oil feed is coming from the pressure switch area via a T-fitting. The pressure will go into the turbo and drain just above the oil line in the oil pan...Some drilling will be needed

    3.) Cams? Maybe for "stage 2."

    4.) I've read Corkey Bell's "supercharged" and the book seems to be a wealth of knowledge. Perhaps I should pucker up and drop the $35.00 for turbocharger edition, huh?

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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Yup, I had the old one years ago, let someone borrow and never saw it again...

    Not sure if the T is enough oil, will have to think on that one. The 301 Turbo and GN take it off the main oil gallery at the first available point from the oil pump. Enough volume might be from the oil line just after the oil cooler. Then you get volume and cooled oil all in one.

    My POV comes from the DeVille, so pardon if things seem odd from my persective, I have never go a good look at a 4.9L or a N* Seville.

    The intake might be a good place to drain, seems Buick used it too. The lifter valley onto the lifters is fine and there is always good drainback here. Find an intake taken off and look where you can drill. Get the oil drain tube seal from a 301 Turbo or GN/231 Turbo. Ahh, one thing, oil drain must be below turbo! you are right, you may have to use the oil pan.....

    Where is the oil pump on a 4.9L? Front? Back? Where is the oil to the filter coming from? Can you get in and shim up the pump for more pressure? Or get a new one and grind it for more volume?

    Thoughts, just more warped thoughts....

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