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139K views 238 replies 45 participants last post by  Capt Fiero 
#1 · (Edited)
Okay folks, it's getting close to crunch time with the turbocharger...Had you thinking, huh?

Anyways, this project is still a little off from actually starting, but I now have most of the pieces in place for the project to begin.

4.9 turbocharger, stage one indicates that the turbo will be placed on an existing engine/transmission combo without an actual rebuild. I will be running no more than 6 psi of boost, and will try to get away with not using an intercooler. We'll see how it works out. I am well aware what this might mean for my engine and tranny, but I feel that it will be good for tuning purposes in the long run for the second stage...

The 4.9 turbocharger, stage two, will include the 4.9 liter Cadillac engine (4.5 was considered for a split second) with ported/polished heads and intake; possibly more cam; new moly-chrome piston rings and general rebuild specifications. Overall, the stage two engine will be pumping around 260hp/300lb.ft naturally aspirated. I will add about 8 psi of intercooled boost which will make the engine perform in the 360hp range...I hope.

The second stage transaxle will be rebuilt and bullit proof and I will attempt to have a 3.73:1 final drive ratio. I have to study the tranny more, but I hope I can make those aforementioned changes.

So back to stage one. I have the following items for this project:

GM-3 IHI 6.5 liter diesel turbocharger. It is used and will probably need a rebuild in the bearing area, but for $76.00, I couldn't pass it up. I'll let everyone know if it needs a rebuild or not when I get it next week via UPS.

I have the MSD boost timing controll system with an MSD digital-6 ignition. These items will help combustion and timing while under boost.

I have two Deville exhaust manifolds (front and rear) and a cross-over pipe. They need some welding and an adapter fabricated for the turbo to attach to, but this won't be an issue...I hope.

Auxiliary fuel system minus the actual controlls (piggy-back ECM). I am going to do one of two things here: use an old TBI system for extra fuel needs; or I will make a new fuel log and use two or more auxiliary fuel injectors for fuel needs. An extra fuel pump and some cutting will be necessary, but they're taken care of...Minus the cutting of the fuel tank.

I am going to go with the Megasquirt system for now, which will set me back by a couple hundred (actually $140.00 for the complete DIY kit)...Unless someone hacks the Caddy ECM before I purchase it.

Extra exhaust tubing. I have plenty around in the garage I have just rented. It shouldn't be an issue.

That's it for now as far as supplies. I will also add a bypass valve so that the boost won't blow anything up when I take the pedal off the floor. And perhaps an electronic wastegateb to keep good controll of the boost I'll be running, which will be considered a rather small amount...We'll see how that works out.

As for the general reader: there are only a select few people here on this form who's technical advice will be heeded. They know who they are, and are welcome to help me out if possible. If you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say it: this is my project and I'll won't listen to your negatron views! :nyanya:

I am not concerned if people think this is a crazy idea: I don't care and if you don't have any good technical advice, read on...If you decide to flame or otherwise put this project down, I simply will not respond: your opinion won't even be considered valid. If you have valid advice and/or comments, type away. Remember, this is a community project that everyone will enjoy in the end. People want to see this done and IT WILL BE DONE!

That's it for now. This thread will be here for a while, and may even get burried due to my personal time constraints, but I'll keep everyone posted and will post pics of the items and project as soon as I recive more space for attachments.
 
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#52 ·
Formula94lt1 said:
Hey Illumina the amount of boost before an intercooler is "needed" is TOTALLY a case by case thing. Depending on compression, timing, chamber design, octane, turbo compressor map and quench area the amount of boost you can safely run un-intercooled can vary quite a bit from application to application. If anything it will add power and it will be safer under boost at the cost of, well, being a possible pain to plumb everything up/ more system complexity. I wouldn't use just one 300zx intercooler if one 3.0 turbo car needed 2 of them, especially considering most stock stuff is fairly restrictive. I know you bought a turbo already but a really good one would be an HX35 off a cummins, some 5.0 ford guys use them and they say they are a bit on the small side for a higher revving 5.0 so I figure it would work VERY well on a 4.9 in its power range. BTW a diesel turbo usually has a large turbine housing compared to its compressor housing since diesel's apperently have more exhasut energy than gas engines so thats something to consider when using a diesel tubo on a gas engine. If nothing else before ensuing any further into the project get the most helpful turbo book EVER in existance by Corky Bell "Maximum Boost" I found it EXtremely helpful. Good luck....

Thanks for the input dude :thumbsup:

Right now the project is at a standstill due to time constraints and such, but hopefully this summer things will pick up a bit. Maybe a little sooner than that.

As for an intercooler, I would just feel better having one, so there is no real biggie in terms of where I am going to place it at and the plumbing associated with it. At the junk yard a few weeks ago I seen a nice intercooler from a Saab, but alas it was too large for where I have plans to put one at.

My biggest concern remains fuel: I simply don't have the confidence in what system I want to run. One thing for sure is that it will be an auxiliary piggy-back system running along side the stock system. I am getting mixed signals from people as to what a piggy-back system will do when ran in conjunction with the stock system...:helpless: I have one person hoping that I will choke on Rotella diesel oil (presumably) on this project telling me all kinds of horror stories, so I am a little concerned on how to run this extra fuel without blowing something.
 
#53 ·
I have 2 gallons of Rotella T in the trunk if you need help chocking.... :)

Any thoughts on my piggyback board that uses the existing injectors to trigger the TBI injector (through a driver board) that can simply manage more fuel? You can control it fairly easily, and it would be easy for me to add on additional control to up the fuel as the boost increases.

Not to mention, this is sort of a "free" intercooler. Remember that adiabatic cooling takes effect when you spray a liquid in the air like this. So it will cool the intake and the intake charge down effectively cooling the whole intake charge. Sort of like a water injector only injecting fuel instead of alky or water. You get the best of both worlds. Do not inject fuel through a real intercooler "BBOOOOOMM" happens..... After....

Or we can design up an aftercooler design into the intake that doesn't need an intercooler....
 
#54 ·
Illumina

Glad to hear someone is as nuts as me when it comes to stuff like this. I have been off the forum for about 6 months, and was honestly just scavanging for information to do the same thing with my 93 seville (also a 4.9)

as far as the intercooler, from doing several n/a to turbo conversions in the past, high compression, and high charge air temps are not a good combo. Ultimately I am looking to run somewhere close to 9psi on my car....no flames, i am just slightly nuts. for what you are talking about in stage 1, I would seriously consider looking at water/menthonal injected cooling. it drops the charge temp, and avoids pre-ignition pretty well. An intercooler is great if you are up for dealing with the plumbing, injection is the next best thing, and can be done pretty cheap if you build the system yourself.

Another thought, if you are interested, I just had the tranny rebuilt and guarnteed to withstand 600ft/lbs of torque, with a true limited slip front diff...what fun is monsterious torque if all you do is blow up one front tire?

Best of luck on your project, the part i am somewhat stuck on is a clean and straight forward method of getting the extra fuel in.
 
#55 · (Edited)
Go check this out.... It might give you some idea's, also if you email the guy, he might be able to answer a few questions since he's been through it...

http://www.msvorinich.itgo.com/

The guy in the webpage built a junked four cylinder turbo mustang from the ground up using mostly junkyard, home made and basically cheap parts.. He's currently running at 25psi but wants to go to 30+psi... Pretty impressive what he's done.. Go the the tour section and you can see the build from day one...

He built a massive 3 core intercooler by combining and welding three volvo intercoolers together... He states that the pipe before the intercooler is hot while the pipe after the intercooler going into the intake is chilled. Thats why he is able to run at such high boost on basically a stock engine without blowing the thing up.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Hey guys, I recently acquired an IHI GM4 turbo for use with my application. IHI makes it pretty hard if not damn near impossible to get anything like compressor maps/flow charts, turbocharger trim, A/R of their turbos. I have managed to find a few charts and random info for IHI turbo's but it's never the info that I need. I bought this turbo from a friend who lives on the other side of the country. I have seen it in pictures but don't have any idea of the actual size of it for comparison and how it will spool with my motoruntill it arrives on my doorstep.

This is why I was hoping to get some info here from you guys, see I found this thread quite randomly by searching for what seemed like days to find not a whole hell of alot.

So I'm asking for any info that you guys have on the GM series of Borg Warner tubos, inlet size, outlet size, downpipe size, upgrades for the wastegate? What is the wastegate spring set at from the factory?

I am no stranger to forced induction and have been tuning cars for the better part of 15 years.

My mods will include megasquirt with MSD ignition componants, mainly the 6BTM, 440 injectors, possibly a couple Saab/Volvo/Audi cold start injectors set to go at various psi with Hobbs pressure switches. I will also go with a large front mount intercooler with a CO2 spray system for the cooler itself. In the intake I might go with an alcohol injection setup, btu if I can control A/F then I won't need to as my intercooler is quite efficient for it's size.

As for boost suppliment I will be going with 3" turboback exhaust with no catalytic converter, a Tial external wastegate, and for boost control itself the Greddy Profec B Spec II. from what I gather, I won't be able to push a whole lot of boost, maybe 6-8 psi?

I have all of the other goodies as well, boost gauge, A/F guage, EGT tapped in my manifold and a flange welded to accept what I think APPEARS to be a T3 inlet flange on the exhaust side of the GM4? I've been ruuning an aiResearch .60/.63 T3 for quite sometime and getting some decent numbers.

Basically I think have all of my avenues covered, I live close to a couple dyno shops and have access to test and tune for relatively cheap prices as I am good friends with a couple shop owners.

I ALSO own a Zeitronix wideband O2 sensor so I can monitor A/F realtime.

Couple side notes this is hopefully going to be going on a 12 V sohc 2.2 4 cyl motor with 7.8:1 compression, 86.50 bore and 94 mm stroke.

Yeah I know it'll take awhile to spool, but I am no stranger to nitrous as well.

Any info that you guys might have on this turbo would greatly be appreciated.



Thanks guys.
 
#58 ·
Nitrous and turbos are an awesome match! Intercooler in a bottle!!!

Watch those intake air temps drop like a rock when the bottle is loose!

You sound like you are covering all the bases. I have a 1980 Turbo T/A that I got to 14.21@97.3 mph. Before you all tell me how slow that is, that is 4030lbs, 3.08 gears and no ECM, just a simple ESC controller for pinging, a total of 24 degrees mech advance, 7.5 psi boost and the worlds worst cyl heads. And that put nearly 290 hp to the ground. With more boost one night (ok ok, I pulled OFF the wastegate!), unofficially ran past our local 1/4mi marker nudging 110 mph. This was with 100 lbs of tools and 3 people in the car. And yes, I beat the nitrous fed 302 Mustang. Bad. It sure was fun!!!

Turbos are the ultimate in power adders....
 
#59 ·
Hell, I did a Google search and came up on my own damn thread :bonkers:

To the best of my knowledge, the Warner-Ishi turbochargers in question are a T3/T4 rating at .60/.70...I'm not too sure. I just know that the compressor is quite large while the turbine inlet isn't the largest I've seen. I'll have to dig up my Ebay posting where I bought it from to find the exact specs as I think they're on there somewhere.

Anyways, my only concern is fuel. I have the MSD BTM and just about everything else, I just don't have the Megasquirt yet, as I'm still trying a couple of places that might be able to work out the problems with my ECM. I've made contact with a link Katshot gave me from "PCM-for-less" and the guy told me that he might be able to do it if I sent him either the car or the ECM...I'll gladly send an ECM: I have a few to give away. But I will not give him the car to tinker with :suspect: I'll respond back to him and try and get a more specific answer.
 
#60 ·
That .60/.70 is nice to know, especially since there are some members who're running a .70 with the same motor that I intend to do it on, specifically with the IHI VF22 that comes on the older j-Spec Subaru STi. I can't seem to track down info anywhere on trim and A/R, I could and will measure and calulate when it gets here.

Trim is calculated by dividing the inner diameter by the outer, squared x100:

(??/??)^2 = 0.??

Then you'd do the same with the turbine:



IE:TRIM = ( Dp / Dg )² x 100
Si Dg = 50 mm y Dp = 35 mm
TRIM = ( 35/50 )² x 100 = 49

A/R howvere is completely different:
The A/R in a relationship that is obtained when dividing the interior area of the turbine where the inner walls are found, through the turbine housing radio from the center to the tongue, like this:


If you happen to have the turbo getting dusty in your basement/closet/garage, do you think you could measure it for me?

I'll be sure to measure mine and post the results when it gets here but AFAIK, the one that I am getting is a GM4. I think you said that you were getting or got a different one? Any idea of the spec differences between the years?

Wait a minute, I think I just asked you to show me yours if I show you mine:shhh:

lol
 
#61 · (Edited)
Remember too, as we discussed a while back, you want to go with a too big turbo on a 4.9L.

You have a base compression of 9.5:1 with a small cam. The cyl pressure is high enough already. A properly sized turbo will do 1 of things, blow head gaskets, ping uncontrollably in boost (even unheard pinging is deadly), melt pistons due to lean mixture (someone makes a fuel pressure regulator that ups pressure 1:1 ratio with boost, I think I was saying earlier that you needed 1lb more injector per lb of boost, I meant 1 psi more fuel pressure to 1 lbs more boost, sorry! Else the boost will be pushing back the fuel pressure, so every PSI higher the boost is the fuel pressure is that many psi LOWER, remember, the fuel pressure is maintained based on atmospheric pressure, not intake pressure). The engine will start falling off in cyl pressure around 3500-4000 with that cam. With a larger turbo you want boost coming on strong by 2500 to 3000 rpm to flatten out that torque/hp curve.

Check with the supercharger companies. Magazines show them all the time too.

So calculate how much fuel the stock 18lb injectors can support and see how much you think you will get out the 4.9L boosted and make sure the 18lbers will support that much power. Plan for a 12.3 or so fuel mixture, not 14.7. Turbos need extra fuel to keep from melting pistons. Been there done that, I have a reasonably designed 301 Turbo that DID get enough fuel and it will leaned out enough that I melted #7 @ 100+ mph......

So your TBI fuel will have to be boost referenced for sure, the stock fuel not really, as the TBI will support more than enough. But TBI's need around 10 psi, the PFI needs 45. Any thoughts on managing the fuel pressure? I don't know how much pressure is in the return rail, if it is higher than the TBI's outlet return rail, it will not be able to manage it's pressure well, it at all.

My 301 Turbo had a Garrett TBO305 with a .82 A/R. Which is ok for, but there are so many other restrictions the 301 never could live up to its potential. Once I get the $$, I don't see why a 350-400 hp 301 with a carb draw through system would not be EASY. As it was with as bad as it was with 7.5 psi I was putting 290 HP to the ground. No intercooler, just a M4ME Q-Jet, special HEI and a pathetic set of heads and intake....

http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...TBO3+TBO305+A/R&hl=en&client=safari target=nw
 
#62 ·
Hey Tom, I have an interesting idea...

I was talking to someone who has several key items I may need to get this turbo project under gas. These items include the following:

Allante 4.5 liter intake manifold, both upper and lower,
Allante steel rocker arm supports,
Allante fuel rail,
Allante throttle body (TB).

All of this can be had for $250.00!!! (Another $20.00 for shipping.)

Basically what I was thinking was that the Allante intake manifold is much more open and could possibly support 8 more fuel injectors in addition to the 8 already on there for a total of 16 injectors: 8 for the stock system; 8 for the auxiliary system. I can fine-tune the auxiliary fuel system for boost and keep it quiet under normal driving so as not to disturb the stock fuel system while under closed-loop/part throttle operation. With all 16 injectors, it should be safer to tune this thing out.

The steel rocker supports are just a bonus for roller-rockers and a stronger valvetrain assembly.

The only thing I'm worried about is the throttle posistion sensor (TPS). I believe it is still the round connector type that is standard on the 4.9 liter, but I'll have to match sensors or part numbers to be sure.

Also with this setup, it may be easier to run a water injection aftercooler or just a plain intercooler too.

Let me know what you think.
 
#64 ·
Anyone have any thoughts on my application? Keep in mind that it is hopefully going on a 2.3 4cyl with 7.8:1 compression.

BTW- I've done some calculations on the GM3 compressor side and it works out to be a 53 trim. I haven't gotten to the exhaust side because the center section is fused to the exhaust side via rust :rolleyes2

Once I get the center cartridge seperated from the exhaust side, I'll be able to measure the turbines trim and the exhaust sides A/R.

Just from eyeball comparing, the turbine appears to be no bigger than my aiResearch .60/.63, BUT, that is only looking at the inner portion of the turbine. The inside could possibly tell a compeletely different tale. From looks though, it doesn't appear to be any larger than the turbine that I am using currently.
 
#68 ·
illumina said:
Allante 4.5 liter intake manifold, both upper and lower,
Allante steel rocker arm supports,
Allante fuel rail,
Allante throttle body (TB).

All of this can be had for $250.00!!! (Another $20.00 for shipping.).
Awesome!! Hopefully it isn't too tuned, turbos aren't the fondest of intake tuning for NA engines, it can make them peaky. But I don't think it should be a problem at all.
illumina said:
Basically what I was thinking was that the Allante intake manifold is much more open and could possibly support 8 more fuel injectors in addition to the 8 already on there for a total of 16 injectors: 8 for the stock system; 8 for the auxiliary system. I can fine-tune the auxiliary fuel system for boost and keep it quiet under normal driving so as not to disturb the stock fuel system while under closed-loop/part throttle operation. With all 16 injectors, it should be safer to tune this thing out.
Let me know what you think.
8 injectors addtional seems pretty excessive, you won't need that much. Not to mention the plumbing of them. But then again, they require the same pressure as the rest. A potential issue is with all 16 injectors dumping fuel it very well might overcome the capacity of the fuel pump. A 255 liter/hr pump might be needed to keep up with the demand. Again, an issue is if the injectors are boost side, you will need boost pressure+fuel pressure to keep the same fuel pressure relative to the injectors. A special boost referenced regulator is required.

I like the ease of the TBI unit, and how easy it would be to trigger it (2 drivers instead of 8). I will look into having 8 injectors to drive and see what I can come up with. I can't imagine needing large injectors, smaller here might be a good thing. Consider at WOT and 14.7 psi boost (1 bar) you, in theory, would need 2x the fuel delivered over stock. That is assuming that you have 100% VE at stock and used all of what you had, and boosted you are equally efficient, 200% VE by then. But in reality a boosted engine will see more like 120-130% VE (Volumetric Efficiency). And stock engines are typically more like 80-85% VE at best. And that is not always at all RPM's. It might be 50% VE at 1000-2000 rpm, 75% by the time you hit 2500 rpm, etc... Maybe peak at 85% for a short time at 5000 rpm. MAYBE. If the planets line up.... And how to calculate?? Dyno time.... BSFC, power and rpm make up some of it.

So I would anticipate if all was running well, you would need upwards of 45% more fuel than stock. So like 30 lb injectors would handle it all with only the stock 8 locations. And then tweak the code in the ECM (the BLM value and the fuel cells) to supply it when boosted (>1 bar on the MAP)
 
#69 ·
Stoneage_Caddy said:
the quad 4 was a 2.3l 4 cyl .....came in everything from oldsmolbiles to chevy cavaliers and a few berattas ...gm relased the blower kit for it in late '00 if memeory serves
Yeah I know about those motors but this is entirely different. It actually started as a 2.2 12V but with overboring .50, it ends up being a 2.3 which is why you might be confused on the actual motor. Mine is the F2T found in the 88-92 Mazda MX6 Turbo. The pistons are still the stock 7.8:1 c/r, but after all is said and done with the block and head, my compression will be roughly 8.5:1
 
#70 ·
N0DIH said:
8 injectors addtional seems pretty excessive, you won't need that much. Not to mention the plumbing of them. But then again, they require the same pressure as the rest. A potential issue is with all 16 injectors dumping fuel it very well might overcome the capacity of the fuel pump. A 255 liter/hr pump might be needed to keep up with the demand. Again, an issue is if the injectors are boost side, you will need boost pressure+fuel pressure to keep the same fuel pressure relative to the injectors. A special boost referenced regulator is required.
The thing is, I've always planned on using a secondary fuel pump for this project anyways. It will be an either an in-line deal that will be controlled directly with the Megasquirt (MS) system or seperate from the stock fuel system all together just using the MS system. The stock fuel system will therefore be untouched in the latter matter. I forgot too, the MS system reads 2 bars...Good news for the project.

The only thing with using the TBI system...Well, I could still use that system I guess...

By the way, I would love to just hack the stock ECM and forget about the expense of a MS system and all, but as of now, the only person willing to help with that needs my car in-garage (yeah, like that's going to happen) somewhere far from my state. I have priced an EPROM reader/burner and EPROM programmer for this but it will cost near $1000.00 extra than I have right now.
 
#71 ·
use of 16 injectors is to much, especially piggyback. the reason people may say to stay away from piggyback systems is that with only one injector per cyl.. if it fails no problem. but if there are two and one fails then you have an extremely lean situation.
"MegaSquirt has just two injector drivers (that can handle up to ten injectors each), "
if you wanted to be creative you could multiport inject off one driver and tbi inject extra for boost off the other. haha fun.
all im saying is 16 injectors = problems arising in my mind.
take care, sounds really cool
 
#72 ·
#73 ·
I went with the GM3 for two reasons:

1.) Cheap.

2.) The Fiero guys used the similar GM4 on theirs and ran 12.27 on 6-7 psi...They modded their 4.9 liter to get the 12 second quarter mile, but even before then the used engine without mods and 3.13:1 gears (modded 440T4 tranny) with a posi was running low 13's.

Tom, great links dude :thumbsup: They are doing the same thing I am doing: a budget turbocharger project. I am likely going to join their forum for extra input.
 
#74 ·
N0DIH said:
Here is some additional reading: http://www.junkyardturbos.com/101_1.asp

http://www.junkyardturbos.com/projects.asp

http://www.junkyardturbos.com/forum.html

He runs 12.80's with 3 psi boost on a LS1 in a Z28. Not bad!!
I actually ran the 12.8 before the turbo. I had a few mods done at that point. At 3 psi, I'm hoping for low 12's. I'm going to jump to 6 or 7 psi with alky injection. The kit cost me about $850 using a junkyard Holset turbo.

I really want to do a Caddy project. There is a guy on my site doing a Fleetwood turbo kit. I was thinking of a Coupe DeVille sleeper project. Any other suggestions on what might make a nice turbo sleeper?
 
#75 ·
Almost like the person who is on the Junkyard Turbo site is lurking here as well....

Hmmm......
 
#76 ·
illumina said:
I went with the GM3 for two reasons:

1.) Cheap.

2.) The Fiero guys used the similar GM4 on theirs and ran 12.27 on 6-7 psi...They modded their 4.9 liter to get the 12 second quarter mile, but even before then the used engine without mods and 3.13:1 gears (modded 440T4 tranny) with a posi was running low 13's.

Tom, great links dude :thumbsup: They are doing the same thing I am doing: a budget turbocharger project. I am likely going to join their forum for extra input.
Not trying to hijack your thread, but I'm wondering if you've done any measuring to date? Perhaps used the links I posted?

I have a GM3 as well and have sperated the compressor side from the center section as well as the exhaust elbow from the exhaust side. My plan is to measures both the turbine and compressor wheel trim as well as the A/R of the compressor side and exhaust housing. Hopefully, then I'll be able to come up with some sort of theoretical compressor map to tell where the turbo is most efficient.
 
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