The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

[illumina]

Damn people!

I have not forgotten about this project, but it has been placed on hold because of many other things. In the last year, I have purchased a new home, I have been promoted at work, I have been trying to wrap up school, and have been dealing with other automotive related things not concerning this forum. I should also note that the transmission on the Seville took a nose dive to Hell and that has also been a factor in not completing this project; the tranny will be done with a nice LSD however!

Now for the good news...

Since I have become more settled in my house, I will be getting back to the project soon. I don't really want to put a time table on this because I have some home projects to do too, but I have all the pieces necessary to build this project. I'm not going to say what route I am taking either, but I will say this: everyone who gave me credible input in this thread will get credit where do! I want the final results to be a total surprise...I will give a small hint however: I do have a complete Allante intake setup, fuel injectors included...

Also, Tom, where the Hell are ya going dude??!! Hit me a PM and give me your new email before you leave if you'd like, I want to talk more about my ideas here!!!

All that said, please bear with me on this thing for a little while longer!

[CadDeVille1994]

Good luck! I have a 94 Sedan DeVille with the 4.9L. It's a great motor, and it's about time someone does something with it. It's a cadillac motor, I truly believe it can handle upgrades. Can't wait to see those 1/4 mile times when you're done! U should call it the 91 STS-V haha, sure beats a 4.4L.

[N0DIH]

I wouldn't push the boost too hard with stock pistons. Even the LT1's only can handle 6 psi before things start coming out in pieces....And they were meant to be abused....

I would look seriously into o-ringing the block or heads. A big limit is going to be the stock head gaskets, no performance once available. Even the 301 Turbo V8's got o-ringed gaskets..... and I blew 2 sets of them....But I beat the Mustang both times.....

[CallMeCrazy]

I really really really really REALLY wish that people would stop using words like "The ____ engine can only handle __ psi before it breaks." tuning is a HUGE part of whether or not something breaks and all turbos are NOT created equal. 6 psi on a GT12 is not the same 6 psi on a GT60. You need to think about VOLUME when you're describing or discussing turbos. That is why the flow maps are so important when you start turbocharging something that isn't normally turbocharged. Take one small T3 60 trim (largest of the Garrrett T3 before TO4B and TO4E) turbo on a 130-150 ci engine and you may see 300 hp on 18 psi at the point where the turbo is stretched thin and being overworked. Take that same engine and use a TO4B or TO4E and you may see 300 hp on 6-8psi with the turbo barely being used. Now that that same TO4B or E and put it on an engine twice the size and it's the same deal...you need engine to make boost and you need turbo to make power. A small engine isnt going to be too happy with a large turbo the same way a large engine with a small turbo is. Bottom line is that all turbos arent created equal and you CANNOT SAY that "___psi is the highest you can go on stock internals" unless you're describing WHICH TURBO AS WELL. Go back to my posts on the GM that he's thinking of using. The turbo itself maxes out at barely 440 cfm and is capable of running 20 psi but running that much boost on that small turbo will do one thing, create heat, and make it that much harder to tune. You really need to think of your HP GOAL before you think or buy your turbo.

As for what psi an engine fails at...they all fail at some point. I recently tuned a 1.6L B16 (Honda) engine that made 550+ hp on a GT35 turbo with stock internals. To some, the ignorant (still stuck on web forums being keyboard racers) are still stuck in the mindset of "The B16 can only handle 6 psi on stock internal and maybe 200 hp before the rods bend" well guess what...mine was on 26 psi. Tuning is key and knowing which turbo when you say things like ___psi.

[illumina]

Originally Posted by CallMeCrazy

I really really really really REALLY wish that people would stop using words like "The ____ engine can only handle __ psi before it breaks." tuning is a HUGE part of whether or not something breaks and all turbos are NOT created equal. 6 psi on a GT12 is not the same 6 psi on a GT60. You need to think about VOLUME when you're describing or discussing turbos. That is why the flow maps are so important when you start turbocharging something that isn't normally turbocharged. Take one small T3 60 trim (largest of the Garrrett T3 before TO4B and TO4E) turbo on a 130-150 ci engine and you may see 300 hp on 18 psi at the point where the turbo is stretched thin and being overworked. Take that same engine and use a TO4B or TO4E and you may see 300 hp on 6-8psi with the turbo barely being used. Now that that same TO4B or E and put it on an engine twice the size and it's the same deal...you need engine to make boost and you need turbo to make power. A small engine isnt going to be too happy with a large turbo the same way a large engine with a small turbo is. Bottom line is that all turbos arent created equal and you CANNOT SAY that "___psi is the highest you can go on stock internals" unless you're describing WHICH TURBO AS WELL. Go back to my posts on the GM that he's thinking of using. The turbo itself maxes out at barely 440 cfm and is capable of running 20 psi but running that much boost on that small turbo will do one thing, create heat, and make it that much harder to tune. You really need to think of your HP GOAL before you think or buy your turbo.

As for what psi an engine fails at...they all fail at some point. I recently tuned a 1.6L B16 (Honda) engine that made 550+ hp on a GT35 turbo with stock internals. To some, the ignorant (still stuck on web forums being keyboard racers) are still stuck in the mindset of "The B16 can only handle 6 psi on stock internal and maybe 200 hp before the rods bend" well guess what...mine was on 26 psi. Tuning is key and knowing which turbo when you say things like ___psi.

I understand where you're coming from on this. Personally, I don't plan to run 33.4 psi because that is not what I'm after - I want about a 400 HP street cruiser that weighs 3500 lbs and can roll with most of what's out there while still riding and looking like a Cadillac should...with a few suspension adjustments to prevent rear-end squat and shit like that.

I don't plan on being one of those guys that has something unpractical for use, so when I say that I want 400 HP on a built engine, then I am likely looking at 7-9 psi of boost on top of an engine that has a mild cam, port and polish, Allante intake and other gadgets (I pretty much have the aforementioned items I need there at that)...

That said, the project is still taking a bit of time. House is going through quite a few changes, but I have a new 4.9 liter ($65 from junkyard half-price day!) that I am working on with a few neat surprises in store, including my device for forced induction. The transmission is also done and will likely get a run this weekend to see what needs to be done there - upgraded 3.33 FDR with an LSD, beefier internals, shift improvements, and a Superchip for this transmission combo that I actually found in a junkyard! It is from a 1992 STS with the 3.33 FDR...

Updates soon, I promise!!!

[N0DIH]

Cool! Killer price on the 4.9!

The idea is NOT to explode the engine the first time boost is hit. So with cast pistons and a bottom end never intending to see boost, keeping it low below 10 psi is crucial.

Illumina, I might have an intercooler for you, PM me.... It is in flux, but possible....

[CallMeCrazy]

Again, not necessarily. The pressure being put in isnt as important as the volume of air being put in at that given pressure. You need to specify which turbo and which volume (how much CFM at given psi) when you're discussing which psi. If you have a turbo that doesnt flow enough volume no matter what psi you're run it at, you don't have much to worry about when it comes to pistons melting, cracking or rods bending. I'll give you this example using the stock MX6 2.2L F2T engine and the stock RHB5 VJ11 turbocharger. The max CFM that this engine is capable of at redline (6,000 rpm) is 235 CFM and that is at 100% VE. The turbo itself is barely capable of 200-250CFM per the flow map. The stock boost on this turbo is 8.7 psi but even if you raise the boost to 20 psi (max) it still isnt enough flow to reduce the AFR from rich to lean. Even at 20 psi the AFR is still pig rich in the 11's. Bottom line, if your turbo is sized accordingly, you don't have nearly as much to worry about. The GM series that he is looking at is sized accordingly for this engine, psi, engine CID, RPM, and target power output. You cannot say ___ psi will ruin the engine when you don't which turbo. Generically saying ___ psi, or "Stay under ___ pis and you'll be okay" doesnt work if you don't mention volume at that specified PSI.

I will say this, most engines can handle at least half an atmosphere (6-8 psi) which is a good start regardless of which turbo it is. I will agree with you there, but the rest no. We're kind of on the same page.

EDIT: PS- I don't come here often, WTF is Casino cash? lol

[N0DIH]

I got you.... I have heard the LT1 can only take 6 psi, more than that they have real problems with the hypereutectic pistons breaking.

[Capt Fiero]

Just mentioning I am still kicking around, I pop in hear and look around every now and again.

My 4.9 is still running great, however I am now getting ready to install my 8th yes eighth transaxle. I managed to blow up the Centerforce Dual Friction clutch I had in the car as well. I have a new Clutchnet clutch that is suppose to be able to handle 450lbs of torque. I am building a custom one off 4spd standard transaxle for the car, with much better gearing for the 4.9's torque. It has a 3.32 gearset with a .73 overdrive 4th.

I do still have a turbo sitting here for the 4.9 but am not sure if I am ever going to get around to installing "it". I still plan a Turbo at some point however the turbo I have is way too big for the motor. It was almost a gag joke that I got it. Its from a Kenworth Tractor. Yes as in long haul tractor. So it should be good for uhm 20-30psi on a 6L+ V8. The inlet is so big, it looks like it could swallow a wooden 2x4 and spit it out the other side.

As for the Turbo 4.9 Fiero. It was modified a fair bit, however for the most part, the engine and fuel system was stock. Custom ECM, and such. I know he had A LOT of passes on that motor and nothing ever failed, it was actually built for his wife and she ran the hell out of that car.

I belive it was a high 12 second car IIRC. I would have to double check the records to make sure. I think there car was in the 3000lb range.

[Raze]

Ok, so I'm bored and need to talk turbos on a cadillac...

What are you planning on doing for engine management? I ask because it would be real straigtforward and easy to install a MegaSquirt, especially since these cars are non-OBD-II which makes sensor feedback to the ECU a moot point. I wish I had my 1990 Eldo near me, it's 1000 miles away in storage as I'd set it up for all to see...

Easiest way to do it is a remote mount turbo, I'd use a Holset HY35 or HX35, 40, etc... series (on the HX you'd have to hog out the turbine split scroll header) for test purposes since they're cheap as dirt (good used one off a couple year old truck usually runs $250 range, only run oil as a lubricant/coolant (no bearings)), in line oil pump ($150), oil lines ($50) some exhaust piping ($100), weld on some hangars(or bolt on if welder not available). Return would be cheaper aluminized steel pipe ($50), for couplers use heater 'stick' hose ($50) for large diesel rigs instead of Silicone because it's much cheaper and much more durable, t-bolt clamps ($50), a cheap ($85) ebay intercooler up front, $300 to build your own Meqasquirt w/a 3-bar MAP sensor, stimulator kit (to bench test that it's working prior to vehicle install), and LC-1 Wideband O2 ($100). You'd also need an external wastegate if you only wanted to run ~5-7lbs of boost which will set you back another $100.

I'm surprised no one has bothered doing this yet, it's so easy it's comical, the turbo system would take a day at most to plumb up and install, the MS would take a couple hours each night x a week for a novice to build, prolly a few sessions like that to install, and then a few more sessions like that to get it idle and then tune. I can't begin to believe no one has considered this, it could be done for about $1300, definatley under $1500...

[illumina]

Originally Posted by Raze

Ok, so I'm bored and need to talk turbos on a cadillac...

What are you planning on doing for engine management? I ask because it would be real straigtforward and easy to install a MegaSquirt, especially since these cars are non-OBD-II which makes sensor feedback to the ECU a moot point. I wish I had my 1990 Eldo near me, it's 1000 miles away in storage as I'd set it up for all to see...

Easiest way to do it is a remote mount turbo, I'd use a Holset HY35 or HX35, 40, etc... series (on the HX you'd have to hog out the turbine split scroll header) for test purposes since they're cheap as dirt (good used one off a couple year old truck usually runs $250 range, only run oil as a lubricant/coolant (no bearings)), in line oil pump ($150), oil lines ($50) some exhaust piping ($100), weld on some hangars(or bolt on if welder not available). Return would be cheaper aluminized steel pipe ($50), for couplers use heater 'stick' hose ($50) for large diesel rigs instead of Silicone because it's much cheaper and much more durable, t-bolt clamps ($50), a cheap ($85) ebay intercooler up front, $300 to build your own Meqasquirt w/a 3-bar MAP sensor, stimulator kit (to bench test that it's working prior to vehicle install), and LC-1 Wideband O2 ($100). You'd also need an external wastegate if you only wanted to run ~5-7lbs of boost which will set you back another $100.

I'm surprised no one has bothered doing this yet, it's so easy it's comical, the turbo system would take a day at most to plumb up and install, the MS would take a couple hours each night x a week for a novice to build, prolly a few sessions like that to install, and then a few more sessions like that to get it idle and then tune. I can't begin to believe no one has considered this, it could be done for about $1300, definatley under $1500...

New details have emerged in that there is a 4.9 tuner that can pretty much eliminate about $1000+ worth of crap that was needed before hand.

I have just been busy with so many other things that I simply haven't had time to do this yet.

Please stay tuned as this whole thing will be a pleasant surprise!

[Raze]

There have been many a tuner if you visit www.fiero.nl boards, there was a turbo 4.5L using stock ECU with auto trans that was chip tuned by a fella in Canada, there are many others. Also, on pre-OBD vehicles the proms could be burned with a few different prom burners and freeware software...

[illumina]

Originally Posted by Raze

There have been many a tuner if you visit www.fiero.nl boards, there was a turbo 4.5L using stock ECU with auto trans that was chip tuned by a fella in Canada, there are many others. Also, on pre-OBD vehicles the proms could be burned with a few different prom burners and freeware software...

Tunercats have one now...

[N0DIH]

Yup!! Been bugging them for a while, got it!

Originally Posted by illumina

Tunercats have one now...

[SmurfsElDog]

Dont forget your A/F Meter.