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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread. in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; As an addition to this thread, the maximum flow on the compressor side is 17.5 m3/min or roughly 630 cfm. ...
  1. #181
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    As an addition to this thread, the maximum flow on the compressor side is 17.5 m3/min or roughly 630 cfm. You need roughly 150 CFM per 100 HP and with your motor could easily see 400+ HP at minimal boost.

    I have so many projects going on right now and haven't had time to even think let alone work on a compressor map. I will though.

  2. #182
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Here is a good article to read on fueling a turbo.

    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php

  3. #183
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I'm still around and was curious how your project is going?

    A recent dyno with the GM8 on 4 psi gave this:


    And that was using a 1.6 Honda engine (Civic). The plan is to start off low to get baselines and go from there. The eventual plan is 20~24 psi but 220~230hp is plenty for 4 psi at the moment.

  4. #184
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Illumina! Check this out! http://www.microsquirt.info/

    This might be just the ticket for additional fuel needed!

  5. #185
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by N0DIH
    Illumina! Check this out! http://www.microsquirt.info/

    This might be just the ticket for additional fuel needed!
    That seems like a good deal there...

    So far we have the following for fueling:

    MSD fuel pump booster with inline fuel pump,
    Megasquirt fuel management system,
    Microsquirt fuel management system (I'm not real clear on if this works along side the Megasquirt or if it's a standalone system),
    XFC fuel management system...

    Those are the fuel controllers. Notice how I didn't mention the use of auxiliary injectors? That is the big goal: to have the stock injection system supply the fuel (larger injectors however are required along with my FPR that understands boost).

    Now all that is needed is to cross-shop these systems in depth and make a selection...

    If anyone else has any good ideas for this, please feel free to post them here!

  6. #186
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    You know, you could do something that runs stock Cadillac until boost happens and then somehow transition over the Megasquirt (parallel injector drivers? FET switches on injectors to switch to MS?) to do boosted throttle power and timing events. The PCM on the 4.9L may not ever know at WOT, as long as it sees all is ok when you are back off of it.

  7. #187
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by N0DIH
    You know, you could do something that runs stock Cadillac until boost happens and then somehow transition over the Megasquirt (parallel injector drivers? FET switches on injectors to switch to MS?) to do boosted throttle power and timing events. The PCM on the 4.9L may not ever know at WOT, as long as it sees all is ok when you are back off of it.
    From what I understand, the XFC will be the ticket for allowing that without even running extra injectors. All that is needed is to run with an boost-referenced FPR (which I have) and the normal timing controlls and such.

    If I go the Megasquirt way, I'll have to add an injector or two, but the price deal is sweat for those systems...

    So far, the XFC is on top of my wish list.

  8. #188
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I would look at going with the XFC with Stage II, and just toss in larger injectors for stage one. Something like V6 injectors (GN Regal are like 30#/hr) would give enough, and then we can look at tricking the PCM into thinking it is at WOT anytime boost is present, which would trigger PE mode (drop MAP to 0 and WOT told to the PCM). This is very similar to what the Turbo carb'd 231's and 301's did. They boost referenced a valve that if boost was present, it killed the vacuum under the primary metering rods, so they went up and went to full enrichment.

  9. #189
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I figured I'd bring this up since there is/was some confusion as to what the Borg Warner IHI RHC6 GM1-8 compares to when comparing any of them to a Garrett TO4B or TO4E.

    The IHI RHC6 GM8 measures 2.756" major diameter and 1.968" minor diameter on the compressor wheel. There are NO minor diameters of TO4E that measure 1.968". The closest you would get would be the TO4E 40 trim which measures 1.870"...BUT..the major diameter is 2.950". A difference of a finger nail on each side...quite a difference in percentage and overall flow potential.

    Now moving on to what is closest- The TO4B S which measures 2.750" major and 1.904" minor.

    Here is the TO4B S which has a max choke flow of 37 lbs/min or roughly 17.7 m/min which equates to roughly 625 CFM. Take the rules of 150 CFM per 100 hp and you'll see that the TO4B S is capable of enough flow for 300~500+ hp.



    Now onto more facts courtesy of IHI. The closest current compressor map that you'll find is located here:



    But this is for the latest series of IHI turbos which aren't ancient and weren't made in the 90's. The updated (ie current) version of the RHC6 family is the RHE61 which is the same frame, same size, same everything except 2000'ish rather than 90'ish.

    Note that the airflow rate for the RHE61 is 3.3 m/min - 17.7m/min or 116.5- 618 CFM. Now that we've gotten that taken care of, we'll move onto the actual flow maps. Here is the entire updated family of IHI turbos:



    Note that the RHE61 barely passes the 20m/min mark and that spooling the turbo that fast would be the equivalent of trying to boost a VJ11 to 30 psi. As said, the choke flow is 17.5 m/min.

    What does this all mean? Why and I posting pictures of turbos that aren't the turbo in question? Glad you asked.

    Here is the archaic RHB3-RHC9 compressor maps:



    The RHC6 family tops out at 17.5 m/min or 620 CFM.





    As far as the turbine, the GM8 measures 2.420" major and 2.030" minor. GM3 appears to be somewhat larger on both the compressor and minor turbine wheel. GM3 measures 2.150" minor on the turbine wheel.

    The measurement for the GM8 would be closest to a Garrett Stage 1 turbine which measures 2.319" major 1.918" minor.

    Measurements for Garrett turbines are as follows:

    Stage 1- 2.319" major, 1.918" minor
    Stage 2- 2.559" major, 2.122" minor
    Stage 3- 2.559" major, 2.229" minor
    Stage 5- 2.798" major, 2.439" minor

    N- 2.922" major, 2.071" minor
    O- 2.922" major, 2.296" minor
    P- 2.922" major, 2.544" minor
    Q- 3.111" major, 2.693" minor

    The GM1-8 has the same T3 footprint (inlet flange) so any T3 inlet flange will work. You can usually track these down for less than $100 on eBay. Secret jewel that many haven't found out about yet and unscrupulous aftermarket companies like SSAutocrap haven't started duping yet.

    FYI-There are already fake Holset, Cummins, Peterbilt floating around. I've even seen a fake John Deere in the shop.

    Anyways, just an FYI. Use for whatever.

  10. #190
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    My battery is in the process of moving to the trunk ....to make room for something ....

    Hopefully i will be the very first to make a functional electric supercharger ...no hair dryers ...no bullshit .....just need to figure out my availble wattage....

  11. #191
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Thanks bro! But I have another turbo project going on now: replacing the 4T60-E Turbo-Hydramatic transaxle in my car...

    Anywho, thanks for the information, and post more if you have it!

  12. #192
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Keep us posted on when the turbo swap will resume and how well the 3.33 4T60E swap/buildup goes. That thing is gonna be a rocket. IF you can ever get traction.....

    You'll be chasing down those pesky Mustangs and Ricers and they won't know what just blew them away... V8 Turbo baby!

    Quote Originally Posted by illumina
    Thanks bro! But I have another turbo project going on now: replacing the 4T60-E Turbo-Hydramatic transaxle in my car...

    Anywho, thanks for the information, and post more if you have it!

  13. #193
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by N0DIH
    Keep us posted on when the turbo swap will resume and how well the 3.33 4T60E swap/buildup goes. That thing is gonna be a rocket. IF you can ever get traction.....

    You'll be chasing down those pesky Mustangs and Ricers and they won't know what just blew them away... V8 Turbo baby!
    Hehehehehe

    Guess what? I just recieved the Transtar Deluxe rebuilt kit (via UPS), the Trans-Go shift kit, and the 2100 RPM stall converter, all for $375! The rebuild kit includes Kolene 2nd clutch steels and the entire kit has Borg-Warner red-frictions, steels, gaskets, filter, vacuum modulator, and other goodies. I'm just a tad stoked about this, can you tell?

    Now here's the big trick: the place I got all of this stuff from offers 33/37 drive chain sprockets with the shaft included. Add the chain and it's about $110 total, and this will make my FDR a nice 3.73:1...

    I have already decided to go for the Engineered Performance LSD, which will set me back about $600, but I'll likely have it within the month, which all depends on when I start tearing into the tranny (which depends on when the ATSG comes to me).

    I'll post a picture thread of this whole thing with all the details...And the details of the engine build-up I'm doing instead of the turbo (just for now).

  14. #194
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    which turbo is more eff for the 4.9

  15. #195
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    I've actually had a slight change of heart as well. The engine that I'd be using this on is much smaller than yours. The stock exhaust housing is a T3 footprint and is roughly the same size as the standard T3 housings. My redline is 6,000 rpm and my engine is a 2.2. I'll actually be converting the GM to a hybrid of sorts. I'll use an RHB6 turbine with the RHC6 center cartridge, RHC6 compressor wheel and compressor housing and an RHB5 exhaust housing. My attempt will be to minimize lag time being that I have a smaller engine but still be able to take full advantage of the larger compressor wheel. My goals are 350 hp on an engine that makes 145hp in stock form.

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