The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread. - Page 12
Cadillac
 

Cadillac Forums | Help Us Help You | Advertise | Cadillac Parts | Cadillac News | Cadillac Classifieds / (Old System)

Cadillac Technical Archive | Cadillac Dealers | Cadillac Reviews | Cadillac Dealer Reviews | Cadillac Vendors

CadillacForums.com is the premier Cadillac Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 12 of 16 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 LastLast
Results 166 to 180 of 239
HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread. in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Is there any way to run a secondary fuel system triggered by boost. I know MSD makes a nice boost ...
  1. #166
    Capt Fiero's Avatar
    Capt Fiero is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Surrey B.C. Canada
    Age
    38
    Posts
    192

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Is there any way to run a secondary fuel system triggered by boost. I know MSD makes a nice boost timing retard system that can take care of timing issues. I am not sure how it would work but plumbing a couple of in-line injectors into the intake tract that would come on as it sensed boost conditions. As boost came up the injector duty cycle could be increased. I am not personally familer with how the Caddy's BCM/PCM works. As my car is a standard trans and does not use anything but the main Caddy ECM.

  2. #167
    davesdeville's Avatar
    davesdeville is offline Banned
    Automobile(s): 1995 ETC, 75 Deville, Cad500 powered 73 Apollo, 94 Mark VIII
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Age
    26
    Posts
    7,971

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    This is technical discussion. Far from arguing. You can't get a thread locked for technical discussion unless you get into name calling and whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by N0DIH
    Agreed, it might not be a major HP gain ("Buy now for an instant 100 hp gain!!!") but to keep things flowing proper with minimal issues, go as large as a N/A motor is for the boosted engine (a 300 CID boosted to 7.5 PSI is approx 450 CID airflow). Strictly by the numbers.
    I'm not saying a 454TB is necissarily a bad idea, just that it may not be worth the effort to buy & install. And you're right it's 450ci worth of air, but it's still packed into 300ci worth of space.

    So here's the big thing, should I make successful contact with someone who can make this chip happen, I will need to either have CallMeCrazy finish his compressor map, or I will have to build one of my own, just to see where boost will likely occur with the 4.9 liter engine so that fueling this thing wn't be the big issue that it is now.
    I can't go back and read this thread to see if this is what CallMeCrazy is doing, but a regular compressor map just shows the compressor efficency of the turbo. It's mostly for sizing purposes to get the right turbo for your engine airflow and boost requirements. If you use the efficency numbers and calculate out how much more air is actually going into your engine you can have an incredibly rough guess on how much fuel needs to be injected when. But you'll still be guessing for the engines true volumetric efficency, when the turbo will spool, how much boost it will produce at what RPM, along with other variables. So you definately still need a good amount of leeway for fine tuning. Have to make sure you have that room to tune it with whatever fuel management you go with.

  3. #168
    illumina's Avatar
    illumina is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): '98 Buick Regal LS - '91 Caddy Seville - '87 Caddy Seville!
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    The Empire...
    Posts
    4,425

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by davesdeville
    This is technical discussion. Far from arguing. You can't get a thread locked for technical discussion unless you get into name calling and whatever.
    I'm glad you realize that


    [quote-Davesdeville]I'm not saying a 454TB is necissarily a bad idea, just that it may not be worth the effort to buy & install. And you're right it's 450ci worth of air, but it's still packed into 300ci worth of space.[/quote]

    The 4.5 liter TB might be a good choice to begin with. I have like 5 of them laying around ready to be installed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davesdeville
    I can't go back and read this thread to see if this is what CallMeCrazy is doing, but a regular compressor map just shows the compressor efficency of the turbo. It's mostly for sizing purposes to get the right turbo for your engine airflow and boost requirements. If you use the efficency numbers and calculate out how much more air is actually going into your engine you can have an incredibly rough guess on how much fuel needs to be injected when. But you'll still be guessing for the engines true volumetric efficency, when the turbo will spool, how much boost it will produce at what RPM, along with other variables. So you definately still need a good amount of leeway for fine tuning. Have to make sure you have that room to tune it with whatever fuel management you go with.
    This is why I prefer the Megasquirt method or something like it. I can add an auxiliary fuel system on top of the stock system. It should allow for that all-important fine-tuning. And yes Cap_Fiero, it does facilitate tuning for boost.

    The reason I wanted the compressor map done is to see if it might be able to help me in figuring where the boost starts so that I can tune for fuel and timing lead. As for now, it's just going to be trial-and-error for figuring when to add the fuel. With the MS allowing for 2-bars, I might not have to get too technical on the tuning for fuel...

  4. #169
    Capt Fiero's Avatar
    Capt Fiero is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Surrey B.C. Canada
    Age
    38
    Posts
    192

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Dang if you can run it like that it would be a simple matter of puting a check valve in the stock MAP sensor line so it never see's any boost in the intake and then run the MS system to add fuel via secondary injectors and a timing retard via an external MSD system. This would allow you to have a totally stock ECM and totally stock fuel system with just add on componints to be totally tunable and easily changed in modules rather than an entire system. The only draw back is that the right hand would not know what the left hand was doing so you would have to be the smart one in the middle to teach everthing to play nice.

  5. #170
    illumina's Avatar
    illumina is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): '98 Buick Regal LS - '91 Caddy Seville - '87 Caddy Seville!
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    The Empire...
    Posts
    4,425

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt Fiero
    Dang if you can run it like that it would be a simple matter of puting a check valve in the stock MAP sensor line so it never see's any boost in the intake and then run the MS system to add fuel via secondary injectors and a timing retard via an external MSD system. This would allow you to have a totally stock ECM and totally stock fuel system with just add on componints to be totally tunable and easily changed in modules rather than an entire system. The only draw back is that the right hand would not know what the left hand was doing so you would have to be the smart one in the middle to teach everthing to play nice.
    My idea was to make it to where the MS (Megasquirt) would only supply fuel during boost conditions. I don't know if you can tune it to where it only comes on then, or tune it via fuel enrichment by RPM's, then let the MS 2-bar MAP sensor take over. However, I believe from what I've read about MS is that it can be tuned in both ways i.e., tune for operation during boost only, or tune for fuel enrichment at any given RPM's, or both. And the best thing about it is that you can run a TBI fuel system as well as a MPFI system or whatever you want to run; it's all in the software that is supplied.

    As for the MSD boost timing controlls, that is already taken care of. All I have to do is exchange it at Jegs for the non-MSD ignition system, i.e., the boost timing controll system for non-MSD ignitions.

    Once all of that is taken care of, I have some welding to do...

  6. #171
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    38

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    One of these days I'll get around to sitting down and putting up a compressor map. For now, use this:



    As the early GM series are definately RHC6. Looking at the choke line, you'll see that it is roughly 17.5 M^3/min which would be 618.0068 CFM. This doesn't mean that this turbo can and should be pushed to 618cfm, only that it is capable of it, BUT, at that point would be at its choke line and mostly flowing hot air.

    The *choke line* as you know, or should know is described as: the maximum centrifugal compressor volume flow rate that is normally limited by the cross section at the compressor inlet. When flow at the wheel inlet reaches sonic velocity, no further flow rate increase is possible. the choke line can be recognised by the steeply descending speed lines at the right of the compressor map. Which essentially means that you've gone beyond the turbines maximum permissable speed regardless of boost presure ratio.

    I haven't gone back and checked your maximum rpm as my settings allow 9 pages to choose from and I am knee deep into a 12 pack at the moment lol

    If you could give me your redline, and your max hp and torque at N/A rpm and I can plug in the numbers based on RPM to see how this turbo would work at various VE. Again, they will be guesstimates at best but I can come relatively (realistically) close to the numbers your engine puts out naturally aspirated.

    But keep in mind these numbers will be for your stock motor, not ported and polished, no insane compression ratio of the pistons, oversized valves, etc etc etc.

    Once I have the compression ratio of your pistons, I can plug in the numbers to find out theoretical Cr under boost, etc etc etc. But again they will be guesstimates at best, but at least better than nothing.

    Hope this helps?

    Damian.

    Edit: Looking back, I see you don't plan on intercooling? ehhhhhh, I don't know about that one? Sure the turbine itself will have less backpressure therefor less EGT's, but once you get into an appropriate *sweet spot* for the turbo, that 6 psi goes out the window as 6 psi is hardly anywhere near this turbos *island/sweet spot*. You might want to retink that non intercooling and at least use SOMETHING as once you get it spooling, it won't want to sto on it's own and will make plenty of boost/will run your engine hotter/will be more room for error/adding an intercooler could easily mean the difference between catastrophic failure and "I told ya I could do it".

    I don't mean to spoil the fun, but the guy that you guys are talking about in such high regard for using this same turbo, as far as I could see didn't run it for all that long without getting rid of the motor in the first place. if I am wrong please tell me as I am in no way trying to flame. But following in someone elses footsteps with a thought that "he did it so I can too" and forgetting that "guy A" never much testing on beyond one dyno could very well lead you to think to think "WTF did I do wrong?" when the only thing you've done wrong is followed in someone elses footsteps/see what I'm saying?

    EDIT again: I just went back and looked at the maps here:



    And the RHC6 would be closer to the RHE61. Originally I was planning on basing the RHC6 map on the RHF6 and adding Pr as I went being that they are closest as far as total flow rate at the choke line. I think what I'll have to do is come up with a compromised map between the RHF6, RCH6 Pr chart that I posted above, and the RHE61 Pr chart being that the RHE61 flows more at it's choke line, a higher overall Pr, but the RHF6 flows around the same (17.5^3/min) at it's maximum permissable speed line, but also has a lower Pr of 3.0 (3.3 max according to the charrt)

    Either way, the max Pr for the RHC6 would be 14.7+29=43.7/14.7=2.97 Pr or 29 psi.

    I need to work from the bottom to the top (surge line) then back through the choke line and down, find a happy medium to designate an *island* which would be the compressors sweet spot, and work outward from there.

    This will help kind of, but not really:



    Note that the RHF6 would flow 109.5~582.7 cfm and the RHE61 would flow 116.5~610.0 cfm.

    My calculations using the RCH6 Pr map at 17.5M^3/min without looking at the RHF series map put me dead on at 618cfm at it's choke line.

    Not bad for a 17 year old ehhhh????????












































    Just joking, I'm 30 and work in surgery

  7. #172
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    38

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by illumina
    The redline for the 4.9 liter is 5200 RPM's. As for the amount of boost, I want no more than 6 psi when all is said and done.

    Some 4.9 liter engine specs:

    200 hp @4100 RPM's,
    275 lb/ft @ 3000 RPM's,
    Shift points @ 4900 RPM's.

    I'll have to dig up the cam profile if it is needed. Let me know.

    Basically I would like to add a few hp above the 4100 RPM line, and not let boost come on till about the 2500 RPM line. I'll scan over everything you've supplied and see if I can't do the compressor map myself for my particular turbocharger. But please, feel free to beat me to it...
    Alright so at 100% VE 4K, you'd be at roughly 28.364 lbs/min or more than enough to spool the turbo. At 85% VE you'd be at 24.109, still enough. At 2,500 rpm and 100% VE you'd be at 17.272 lbs/min.

    100% VE:
    2500-17.727
    3000-21.273
    3500-24.818
    4000-28.364
    4500-31.909
    5000-35.455
    5500-39.000

    at 85%:

    2500-15.068
    3000-18.082
    3500-21.096
    4000-24.109
    4500-27.123
    5000-30.137
    5500-33.150


    But also keep in mind that this is not m^3/min rather lbs/min.


    m^3/min at 100% VE with 6psi you'd be at:


    2500-10.768
    3000-12.922
    3500-15.075
    4000-17.229
    4500-19.383
    5000-21.536
    5500-23.690


    85% VE you'd be at:

    2500-9.153
    3000-10.984
    3500-12.814
    4000-14.645
    4500-16.475
    5000-18.306
    5500-20.136


    As you can see, on 2 psi, 4 psi, you'd be spooling the turbo by 2,500 K but these numbers don't take compression ratio into account. I also used a temp of 85º which can and will change. It aslo looks as if a 2.0 Pr and around 8-9 M^3/min would be somewhere in the middle of the *island*. It takes roughly 150 cfm to make 100 hp so in order to make say 300 hp you'd need roughly 450 cfm. 9 M^3/min would put you in the 320cfm catagory but this turbo would be capable of 17.5 M^3/min max. Any way you look at it, you've got alot of math to do before you even start welding lol

    What are your HP/Tq goals for this motor/ I think missed that?

  8. #173
    illumina's Avatar
    illumina is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): '98 Buick Regal LS - '91 Caddy Seville - '87 Caddy Seville!
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    The Empire...
    Posts
    4,425

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CallMeCrazy
    Alright so at 100% VE 4K, you'd be at roughly 28.364 lbs/min or more than enough to spool the turbo. At 85% VE you'd be at 24.109, still enough. At 2,500 rpm and 100% VE you'd be at 17.272 lbs/min.

    100% VE:
    2500-17.727
    3000-21.273
    3500-24.818
    4000-28.364
    4500-31.909
    5000-35.455
    5500-39.000

    at 85%:

    2500-15.068
    3000-18.082
    3500-21.096
    4000-24.109
    4500-27.123
    5000-30.137
    5500-33.150


    But also keep in mind that this is not m^3/min rather lbs/min.


    m^3/min at 100% VE with 6psi you'd be at:


    2500-10.768
    3000-12.922
    3500-15.075
    4000-17.229
    4500-19.383
    5000-21.536
    5500-23.690


    85% VE you'd be at:

    2500-9.153
    3000-10.984
    3500-12.814
    4000-14.645
    4500-16.475
    5000-18.306
    5500-20.136


    As you can see, on 2 psi, 4 psi, you'd be spooling the turbo by 2,500 K but these numbers don't take compression ratio into account. I also used a temp of 85º which can and will change. It aslo looks as if a 2.0 Pr and around 8-9 M^3/min would be somewhere in the middle of the *island*. It takes roughly 150 cfm to make 100 hp so in order to make say 300 hp you'd need roughly 450 cfm. 9 M^3/min would put you in the 320cfm catagory but this turbo would be capable of 17.5 M^3/min max. Any way you look at it, you've got alot of math to do before you even start welding lol

    What are your HP/Tq goals for this motor/ I think missed that?

    As you know, stock is 200 hp, 275 lb/ft. With the bolt-ons that I have now, I am guessing my engine is pushing around 250, as *gasp* a G-meter that I have was rolling up 202 hp to the front wheels. With the turbocharger, I would like to add another 80 or so hp. That would be considering that I remove all bolt-ons, return to stock values, and add the 80 hp to that.

    As for the torque goals, 80 would be good too, however it may happen to work out.

    As for the math, I'll leave that up to you I am barely passing College Algebra and cannot stand another polynomial to the tenth degree...If you understand what I mean... So if we can translate the jargon you've just jotted down (sorry for that term, but I hate math), the turbo should start to spool at 2500 RPM's?

  9. #174
    CallMeCrazy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    38

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    As a guesstimate yes, but possibly not in 1st gear. Like the other guy, you'd probably get 1-2 psi at most from a dead stop and would build from there. If you can do it, get your car on an actual dyno so you know where you stand naturally aspirated and go from there. G Tech's are actually pretty accurate so long as your calculations are accurate for vehicle weight and your own weight when added to the vehicle. Make sure you add in fuel as one gallon of fuel weighs something like 4-6lbs?

  10. #175
    illumina's Avatar
    illumina is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): '98 Buick Regal LS - '91 Caddy Seville - '87 Caddy Seville!
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    The Empire...
    Posts
    4,425

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CallMeCrazy
    As a guesstimate yes, but possibly not in 1st gear. Like the other guy, you'd probably get 1-2 psi at most from a dead stop and would build from there. If you can do it, get your car on an actual dyno so you know where you stand naturally aspirated and go from there. G Tech's are actually pretty accurate so long as your calculations are accurate for vehicle weight and your own weight when added to the vehicle. Make sure you add in fuel as one gallon of fuel weighs something like 4-6lbs?
    From the sound of it, are you suggesting that my turbo is too large? If so, I have a much smaller one sitting around...

    Anyways, the 1-2 shift is at 4900 RPM's and each shift there after is about the same. If the turbo begins to spool at 2500 RPM's, I would think that I could see those 6 pounds of boost before the 1-2 shift...I hope...

    Now also keep in mind that a chip can be burned to change RPM shifting to near redline, or 5200n RPM's so as to make full use of the boost. This would be Fastchip I believe and would likely help in that department.

  11. #176
    N0DIH's Avatar
    N0DIH is offline Cadillac Owners Master
    Automobile(s): 94 Fleetwood Brougham
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Rockford, IL
    Age
    47
    Posts
    7,490

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    My recommendation on Stage ONE is to HAVE a too large turbo, as we are still dealing with 9.5:1 compression and a small cam. This is death to the pistons WHEN it pings like mad. Remember stock parts are great quality, but are NOT meant to be abused. Rods, rings, pistons are not high tech forgings. And it will ping, and if you control so much to not (fuel, timing) you suck out so much efficiency, it is hardly worth the effort.

    The boost you will see so early (good to have on a PREPARED engine) is great, and midrange is breathtaking (my 301 was an easy match for a stout 455 in the midrange, very easy, enough that if I could keep up that power up to 5500 rpm (mine petered out at 4700 rpm, and redline was 5000 rpm), that is mid 12's with 4000#), but we have fragile stock CAST pistons. We have a cam that WILL build us lots of cyl pressure at low rpm, and add a turbo, this is a death sentence. Keep the larger turbo. You cannot attempt to properly match this combination. Match it up on Stage TWO.

    Plan for boost to be coming up strong to hit >3500 rpm, if not more like 4000 rpm. Be conservative on what rpm boost is high at, all it takes is one death rattle to take pistons out and destroy the crank, rods and block. Trust me, need pictures of my piston?? And that was with a 800 CFM Q-Jet and DX secondary rods, and I still liquified a piston.

  12. #177
    fierowrench is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Illumina,
    You meet some of the most interesting people in a junkyard. LOL.
    Let me know if you have an intake available that I can butcher.
    email fierowrench@hotmail.com
    Hijack Over.
    Rich

  13. #178
    illumina's Avatar
    illumina is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): '98 Buick Regal LS - '91 Caddy Seville - '87 Caddy Seville!
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    The Empire...
    Posts
    4,425

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by fierowrench
    Illumina,
    You meet some of the most interesting people in a junkyard. LOL.
    Let me know if you have an intake available that I can butcher.
    email fierowrench@hotmail.com
    Hijack Over.
    Rich
    I certainly have one that I kept from an engine that I put into my '87 Seville. I used the original 4.1 hardware for the rest of the swap.

    I should be at my garage either tomorrow or Sunday to determine what year it came out of. I am really leaning towards '88, as I recall the engine came from an '88 Deville, but that was over a year ago...

    Either way, even if the Throttle bores are different, I would guess that you could still determine what needs done to your setup by the one that I have if needs be.

    I'll also email you once I get a look at it this weekend.

    Take care, Mike.

  14. #179
    Mahalaleel is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 1992 Cadillac DeVille 4.9L
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Provo, Utah
    Posts
    203

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    This is pretty fascinating, is this still going on?

    Mmmm turbo'd 4.9

  15. #180
    illumina's Avatar
    illumina is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): '98 Buick Regal LS - '91 Caddy Seville - '87 Caddy Seville!
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    The Empire...
    Posts
    4,425

    Re: The "4.9 liter turbocharger, stage 1" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mahalaleel
    This is pretty fascinating, is this still going on?

    Mmmm turbo'd 4.9
    It is still part of my plans, but certainly not in the timeframe that I had invisioned at first...In other words, it'll be a while before it is finished, but will be done. Hopefully I'll get it at least physically started by spring, and depending on my repairs to my '89 Deville, maybe sooner, I just don't know...

    All that is needed is the Megasquirt (+/- $150.00) and a turbo rebuild kit (+/- $120.00). It's just that with the winter beating down here in Ohio and my schooling, time is hard to come by, especially with the more important projects that I have going on. Money too since I have a girlfrined

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Bookmarks

Cadillac Posting Rules

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Read about Lincoln | Buick | Kia Forte Forum
Need products for your Cadillac? Check out your options at the links below:

custom floor mats | Cadillac Chrome and Black Chrome Wheels | window tinting