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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, 4.9 performance in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Sorry to tell you but with those mods you would be in the LOW 15's not 14's. It takes a ...
  1. #16
    Night Wolf's Avatar
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    Re: 4.9 performance

    Sorry to tell you but with those mods you would be in the LOW 15's not 14's. It takes a lot of power to have a second and a half gain. You think it is soo easy! I have been there, spent the money, been disapointed with results. Yes it was on a Camaro, but a car is a car!
    If you were to spend $5k and do everything I said (which when I was talking about the machine shop work, I only mentioned a few things, there are alot of other things to do) the car will be in the 14's, not low 15's....

    Plus, you will get better RESULTS making a stock 15-16second car quicker then a stock 13 second car quicker... IOW, like almost any hobby (including home audio gear, my other past time) is, at first you spend a little to get alot, but once you get to a certain point, you spend alot to get a little... but that is what seperates 1 person from the crowd.... IE... it is CHEAPER to get, say a Mazda Miata or an Acura Integra or similar small import to shave UP TO 2 seoncds off their 1/4 time then a Camaro.... NOT that it will be FASTER... A Miata is what? like 17 second car stock? do an engine swap and a few other things, and you can get it to run a flat 15.... 2 seconds off the 1/4 time... to get a stock Camaro, which you claim is a low 13second car to run a low 11second time (2 seconds off the 1/4 time) will take ALOT more money then getting a Miata to go from 17s to 15s.... again, not which is FASTER, but how much it costs to get similar benefits....



    Porting and polishing your heads isn't going to do much but waste your money if you don't get a cam/intake/headers to get the extra airflow in and out. You can port and polish your heads till the cows come home but if you want to see a difference you're going to need everything else to accomidate it before it would actually be beneficial. I can only imagine how restrictive those exhaust manifolds are. Actually, if you were to do it, the proper thing to do is get a cam and then work the heads around the cam.
    Again, that is not the only thing I said would be done... you could get a custom cam ground, and as well as other things.... Obviously you are not gonna go to Jegs and just pick up these parts, but in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing, you can get creative and start modding things on the engine like the TB, manifolds etc... to get them to flow better.

    You also don't need a shift kit on your Caddy. I had my tranny re-programmed with a program called LS1 Edit for Camaros/TA's and Vettes. You can totally adjust the firmness of the shifts, when it shifts, etc. I'm sure you can probably get something like this done. My trans shifted so hard after the settings were changed I could burn out when it shifted into 2nd gear, worse than if it were a M6.
    I don't know about your car, but my car has the 4T60E.... my father has a '99 GTP (one of his many cars) it is pretty much stock, just has the smaller s/c pully, and added a factory strut bar (GM put them on the Regals, but kindly forgot them on the GP) He was getting a noise form the tranny, so he dropped the whole cradle, and took the tranny to his friends shop and had a total rebuild... his tranny is the 4T65E... pretty much the same as the [4T60E] in my DeVille.... he had the tranny rebuilt, beefed up, and had a shift kit installed..... before the rebuild, when the car was NOT in performance shift, it would kick the RPM's back before shifting, and kinda flow into gear, you wouldn't really feel the shift (like my DeVille)... when performance shift was ON (increase in line pressure) it would shift more firm.... what happens with my DeVille and the GP in normal shift, is that the clutch plates come together too slow, and since they are turning when they are coming together, there is unwanted slipping, which also will wear out the tranny faster.... today we were talking about that and then we rode in his car and he showed me, it isn't banging gears (like his Fiero with the shift kit does) but just shifts into gear alot more firm (when not in performance shift) <--- My DeVille is like that from the factory, so that the target 65+y/o buyers woudln't get whiplash from shifting gears, and it would last a good deal beyond the factory warrantee, so GM woudln't be loosing any money on it....

    The tranny in my DeVille is electronically controlled as well, when you run it wide pen, it does shift alot more firm then part throttle, but still not really firm.... a reprogram chip or anything like that can only increase line pressure... but you can only increase the pressure so much.... is is the physical part of the tranny, and how the clutch plates actually slip from the factory like that.... If I can get the shift kit and a fluid/ filter change for $150 or so, I will probably do it, the car really take a long time to shift... again designed for the target audience, and I think the shift kit would improve it alot.

    Oh, and LS1 Camaro's don't run low 14's stock, they run low 13's.
    what I meant by "Now you are gonna be like, "hahahahaha, $5k to get your Cadillac to run a low 14 in the 1/4 my Camaro runs that stock" was supposed to mean, it is faster then it stock... I didn't think I really had to explain that too much....

    That guy with the hot rodded Caddy runs High 12's not Low 12's, plus he has never even been to the track so his estimates with the G-tech might be false. He is also a different story than you! A 500CI engine is no laughing matter, you can make that into a monster, something you cannot do with a 4.9. Plus (I may be wrong) but I'm sure there are tons of performance parts out there for the 500CI that are also used in other big blocks. If I'm not mistaken lot of the older stuff was universal. Also, the car is RWD which helps out greatly in the traction department.
    high 12's, low 12's whatever, the fact is, it is using a Cadillac engine, in a big body, full size, 4600lbs car (IE: NOT stripped out at all) while still retaining a completly factory slook... it is the mother of all sleepers.... something that I dream of owning some day (right beside my '56 Coupe DeVille and '59 Eldorado drop top)

    Anyway, the Cad 500 does have after market parts (500cid.com) and AFAIK other parts form other engines are not interchangable... but the 472/500 does have a nice following... yeah there is the whole FWD/RWD thing.... in a 16, 15, even 14 second car, it really dosn't come into play.... there is a 9second FWD car.... what is your point? my fathers Grand Prix is a high 14second car stock, and even lightly modified can be in the 13's (don't believe me? there is a MASSIVE following on those cars) and they are all FWD.... don't get me wrong, if all else was equal, I woudl take RWD over FWD, but saying 1 car is simply better becuase it is RWD isn't saying much....

    Also, it isn't the fact that the 500 actually has an aftermarket, or the car is RWD, or is is a classic or blah.... but that it is a Cadillac with a Cadillac engine... and in a previous post of yours you said something along the lines of "modding A Cadillac is stupid and pointless, and you can't get A Cadillac engine to run a 12second 1/4) That just disproved your point....

    But again, because of the weight it's slowing him down. My buddy has a 70 Chevelle which he just put a 502 in. He's making 750HP naturally aspirated and 1000HP on spray. He should be in the high 9's.
    Yes, weight does play a big role in it... much of the reason why little imports that make high hp but really low tourqe (NSX xomes to mind) are very fast... weight.... but just how much fun is a car if the whole interrior is gutted, all the seats but the drivers seat is removed, truck has nothing in it, you have to call a tow truck if you get a flat somewhere because you don't carry your spare tire etc.... the fact that you can say your car is running a 12second 1/4 mile time, and NOT gutted, still 4600lbs, completle interrior, big seats etc... means alot more then having essentally a powerful enigne on 4 wheels with an enclosed body, and nothing more....

  2. #17
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    continuation of last thread.... too long for 1 post.....

    Another thing to point out. Lets say you get a chip. Then you do your heads, now you need another chip burned. Then later you do a gear, then you need another chip burned. Almost everything you do effects the computer, and if not programmed to accomidate the mod, your car will not maximize power or run correctly. OBD I may not be as sensitive to mods as OBD II, I don't know, but I know whenever I had something done to my Camaro the computer always needed to be reprogrammed.
    I dunno, never had experience with this... I only know that when I contacted Ed Wright at FastChip.com, he told me the exhuast and intake work (if I did it) would NOT have an effect on the chip.... when I was talking about the chip, I don't plan on getting cam or headwork done, adn if the FDR in the tranny was changed, that wouldn't be bothered by the part of the BCM that controls the engine....

    Anyway, wouldn't the thing that makes sense be to do all the work, THEN have the computer programmed for that, instead of going in "steps" as you mentioned? that goes for ANY car... but again, I don't know much about that as I don't have first hand experience with it...

    All in all, when someone picks up a stock Camaro and takes it to the track and runs a low 13, but gets beat by another (modded) Camaro or Mustang running a 12.... they'll be like, cool, my car can be that fast with some money too, and you woudln't feel bad because a similar car beat you.... but if the same person pulled up next to an old school Fleetwood, which looked completly stock, and thought, "yeah ok, like that guy is gonna try to race me" then get beat from the old school, not gutted or made lightweight at all, powered by a Cadillac engine.... THAT is something that will have EVERYONE at the whole dragstrip staring in amazement at what just happened...

    ... kinda like how you see alot of movies online where someone will take what is otherwise a crappy car, like an early 90's Hyundai, an old Civic or Neon or something, but build up the engine, and keep the looks stock, then have it race, and beat a sports car... I am all for the sleeper look, but instead of a little 4banger econo car, I would rather go with a massive old luxury car what is big, long and heavy....

    Seems like a Lincoln Town Car would be cheaper out of the box though... you got your RWD driveline, and the Ford 302, which has tons of aftermarket.... you could really build up a Town Car, and nobody would suspect it..... I guess it is just personal taste though, you may love to drive around in a flashy car, and everyone knows it's fast as soon as they see it, I would rather have a nice luxury car that looks harmless but completly rips once it is raced.... IMO I think that is one of the coolest things in the world.... again, personal opinion.

  3. #18
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    Re: continuation of last thread.... too long for 1 post.....

    [QUOTE=Night Wolf]
    Seems like a Lincoln Town Car would be cheaper out of the box though... you got your RWD driveline, and the Ford 302, which has tons of aftermarket.... you could really build up a Town Car, and nobody would suspect it..... QUOTE]

    The only last generation TownCar w/302 is a 90' and it is a LOPO one only 150hp. 91-04 have the 4.6 and they only make 249 at max. You could put major money into it and only have about 300hp.

    What comes to my mind is a 94-96 Fleetwood. Supercharged and what not, maybe 400 or more hp.

  4. #19
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    Re: 4.9 performance


  5. #20
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    Re: continuation of last thread.... too long for 1 post.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Wolf
    I dunno, never had experience with this... I only know that when I contacted Ed Wright at FastChip.com, he told me the exhuast and intake work (if I did it) would NOT have an effect on the chip.... when I was talking about the chip, I don't plan on getting cam or headwork done, adn if the FDR in the tranny was changed, that wouldn't be bothered by the part of the BCM that controls the engine....

    Anyway, wouldn't the thing that makes sense be to do all the work, THEN have the computer programmed for that, instead of going in "steps" as you mentioned? that goes for ANY car... but again, I don't know much about that as I don't have first hand experience with it...

    All in all, when someone picks up a stock Camaro and takes it to the track and runs a low 13, but gets beat by another (modded) Camaro or Mustang running a 12.... they'll be like, cool, my car can be that fast with some money too, and you woudln't feel bad because a similar car beat you.... but if the same person pulled up next to an old school Fleetwood, which looked completly stock, and thought, "yeah ok, like that guy is gonna try to race me" then get beat from the old school, not gutted or made lightweight at all, powered by a Cadillac engine.... THAT is something that will have EVERYONE at the whole dragstrip staring in amazement at what just happened...

    ... kinda like how you see alot of movies online where someone will take what is otherwise a crappy car, like an early 90's Hyundai, an old Civic or Neon or something, but build up the engine, and keep the looks stock, then have it race, and beat a sports car... I am all for the sleeper look, but instead of a little 4banger econo car, I would rather go with a massive old luxury car what is big, long and heavy....

    Seems like a Lincoln Town Car would be cheaper out of the box though... you got your RWD driveline, and the Ford 302, which has tons of aftermarket.... you could really build up a Town Car, and nobody would suspect it..... I guess it is just personal taste though, you may love to drive around in a flashy car, and everyone knows it's fast as soon as they see it, I would rather have a nice luxury car that looks harmless but completly rips once it is raced.... IMO I think that is one of the coolest things in the world.... again, personal opinion.
    Exhaust really wouldn't need PCM tuning but if you do other stuff, especially intake work or something like heads/cam you would need your PCM recalibrated and if you put a gear in there you would also need it recalibrated. You change your air/fuel ratio when you do certain mods, that's why you need your PCM retuned, also stuff like idle speed etc. is changed when you do a cam/heads.

    You can change the firmness of you trans with the computer. I have done it with my Camaro. How hard it would shift compared to my Camaro I'm not sure. If you have the electronic transmission, which you have, you can reprogram it. You might want to do some research and try it. I'm sure you can get that thing to shift pretty damn hard. Mine shifts as if I had a shift kit put in, plus I can change it back with the touch of a keystroke! It's cool stuff.

    Since you have OBDI I'm not sure how much of this stuff is the same as my Camaro's OBDII! It may be completely different or exactly the same. I'm not really sure.

    Later,
    Dave

  6. #21
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    Re: 4.9 performance

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Wolf View Post
    They charge $8k-$10k for that... it adds 100hp and like 80 ft lbs of tourqe....

    give me that much money, and I'll be sure to get an exra 100hp out of a 4.9 too....

    Plus, Cadillac 4.9 sounds better then Cadillac 5.0.... there are too many 5.0's aorund, and most people think of the Ford 302 when you say it...

    It dont add no dam 100 hp it adds 85 hp minus 100 rpms since the transmission is limited to 4900. It dont cost 8-10k it cost 5,543 plus 750 for labor. Tell you the truth for that much money I would go buy a corvette engine and tranny and put rear wheel drive on the caddy thats my dream one day for when I will have excess income. Even if I am a millionare I will still buy a 93 deville and put 600 rear wheel horsepower on it with super quiet exhaust.

  7. #22
    ThrowSumD'sONDatBiSH is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 4.9 performance

    QUOTE: I don't know about your car, but my car has the 4T60E.... my father has a '99 GTP (one of his many cars) it is pretty much stock, just has the smaller s/c pully, and added a factory strut bar (GM put them on the Regals, but kindly forgot them on the GP) He was getting a noise form the tranny, so he dropped the whole cradle, and took the tranny to his friends shop and had a total rebuild... his tranny is the 4T65E... pretty much the same as the [4T60E] in my DeVille.... he had the tranny rebuilt, beefed up, and had a shift kit installed..... before the rebuild, when the car was NOT in performance shift, it would kick the RPM's back before shifting, and kinda flow into gear, you wouldn't really feel the shift (like my DeVille)... when performance shift was ON (increase in line pressure) it would shift more firm.... what happens with my DeVille and the GP in normal shift, is that the clutch plates come together too slow, and since they are turning when they are coming together, there is unwanted slipping, which also will wear out the tranny faster.... today we were talking about that and then we rode in his car and he showed me, it isn't banging gears (like his Fiero with the shift kit does) but just shifts into gear alot more firm (when not in performance shift) <--- My DeVille is like that from the factory, so that the target 65+y/o buyers woudln't get whiplash from shifting gears, and it would last a good deal beyond the factory warrantee, so GM woudln't be loosing any money on it....

    The tranny in my DeVille is electronically controlled as well, when you run it wide pen, it does shift alot more firm then part throttle, but still not really firm.... a reprogram chip or anything like that can only increase line pressure... but you can only increase the pressure so much.... is is the physical part of the tranny, and how the clutch plates actually slip from the factory like that.... If I can get the shift kit and a fluid/ filter change for $150 or so, I will probably do it, the car really take a long time to shift... again designed for the target audience, and I think the shift kit would improve it alot.


    That is NOT why the deville shifts are not firm!! The engine throttle cuts off for a split second when it shift into gear to make it unnoticeable. It shifts very firm just the throttle cuts back WHILE it shifts so it seems that it is not firm. This is a feature of these cars from the factory to make it seem like the car doesnt shift gear and also increases engine life. The firmer shifts the super chips claim is because the chip overrides this feature so the throttle doesnt cut off for a millionth(or w/e) of a second while the transmission shifts. You can do this manually without the chip. Just how you can change the timing with the onboard computer (OBD-1) you can also override the throttle cut off while it shifts feature.

  8. #23
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    Re: 4.9 performance

    could you of dug up a thread older than this
    common now
    lets try for something from 03 rofl

  9. #24
    stickpony is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 4.9 performance

    Speaking from experience and having done the reprogramming on many 4.9L engines now(30+), the Superchips timing and fuel tables are better than the fastchips ones. They don't unilaterally add 4 degress of timing and make your car run rich like people claim, they are dyno tuned on a factory motor and they genuinely increase performance 20HP and 18 lb/ft just like they say. the timing is in fact a non-linear increase, as it increases mostly in the lower and upper ranges, leaving the midrange less adjusted. the fuel is adjusted for PE mode( power enrichment ), but lean cruise mode is unaffected, so your fuel economy is unchanged, in fact, it is better at WOT than stock because there is more timing added which increases the efficiency of the fuel burn. The end result is an efficient fuel consuming car and more power and torque. if you simply just bump the timing like so many do without affecting fuel maps on the chip, then your BLMs( block learn mode), will always be a step behind when fuel needs to be added and it will trim the fuel rather than adding it when it is needed...

    I offer my reprogramming services for anyone that needs it. I charge a flat $125 shipped to reprogram your cadillac computer for the 4.9L. I use the Superchips timing, fuel, and VE tables, and i can customize the tune for any perameter, including different than stock tire sizes, increase rev limit, remove top speed limiter, sportier shift points, adjust fan turn on temperatures to acomodate a lower temperature thermostat( recommend going no lower than 180, as 176 degrees is required to go into closed loop ), raise idle engine speed to 800 rpm for those experiencing low cooling from their A/C at the stock 600 rpm idle speed, remove VATS( vehicle anti-theft system ) if need for a custom car application, such as a fiero, A or W-body engine swap, etc...

    Superchips charges $300 for this same service, and they don't even offer the full range of custom programmability that I offer you at $125. If you have any questions, feel free to email me anytime:

    stickpony@gmail.com

  10. #25
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    Re: 4.9 performance

    Remove the back seat, carpet, padding and interior panels, gut the trunk, lose those wire wheel covers and spare, remove all that useless chrome and trim. Mufflers and cat delete, run straight exhaust, might as well pitch the air cleaner and as mentioned advance the timing. Should run faster that way. LOL!

  11. #26
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    Re: 4.9 performance

    bump

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