4.9 aftermarket (possibly)
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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, 4.9 aftermarket (possibly) in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; I posted this in deville forum and got no response so far. The 5.0 liter conversion looks interesting; let me ...
  1. #1
    blkchrry92dvl is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    4.9 aftermarket (possibly)

    I posted this in deville forum and got no response so far. The 5.0 liter conversion looks interesting; let me know what you guys think.

    http://www.domesticperformance.com/d...?cPath=2_20_89

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  3. #2
    davesdeville's Avatar
    davesdeville is offline Banned
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    Looks mad expensive.

  4. #3
    speedyguy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 4.9 aftermarket (possibly)

    Quote Originally Posted by davesdeville
    Looks mad expensive.

    It is mad expensive. ASG who makes the kit has been doing so for quite some time. I talked with Adam from ASG a while ago and the engine is still available but the number of new GM blocks to work with and the demand will have this option phasing out. The main reason for the ASG price is the warranty issues. ASG backs their product it is expensive to buy into that kind of support.

    Some people are interested in a N* swap and in some cases it is worth while but in most it becomes very expensive for what you get. Eventually DP plans to offer a N* swap for a few cars but right now it comes down to a custom job regardless of who you use.

    Ty

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    Night Wolf's Avatar
    Night Wolf is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
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    yeah, I saw that a few times, but it is really expensive, I can guarantee that for $9,600 I can get an extra 100hp outta the 4.9.......

    ...... I was hoping this thread was about someone actually making performance parts, like headers, intake manifold etc..... Also, the 4.9 is a popular engine for swapping into Fieros, so there would be a demand.

  6. #5
    speedyguy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 4.9 aftermarket (possibly)

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Wolf
    yeah, I saw that a few times, but it is really expensive, I can guarantee that for $9,600 I can get an extra 100hp outta the 4.9.......

    ...... I was hoping this thread was about someone actually making performance parts, like headers, intake manifold etc..... Also, the 4.9 is a popular engine for swapping into Fieros, so there would be a demand.
    I will talk with the guy who does our heads and see who he knows who may be able to offer P&P options for the engine.

    Unless you have a market like the import market 90% of the time 4.9 products have to derive from a personís own project or a custom shop.

    The N* is the best swap for the Fiero in my mind..but that is my personal opinion not based on stats of any sort. I really want to be careful about advertising or plugging the shop so I am going to step out for now.

    Ty

  7. #6
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    elwesso is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: 4.9 aftermarket (possibly)

    You could probably drop in a small V8 and make it RWD for 9600.......

  8. #7
    davesdeville's Avatar
    davesdeville is offline Banned
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    Or you could buy a ~97 Deville in great shape for that much.

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    Night Wolf's Avatar
    Night Wolf is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
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    people choose the 4.9 in Fieros becuase it is only 50lbs more heavy then the 2.8 V6, it is cheap, and one of the easitest swaps in them.....

    .....my car is already a V8, RWD on my DeVille would be sweet though.

    I would pass on the '97 DeVille, I would get a '96 (or '97) STS...... my second choice of had, had I have more money.

  10. #9
    speedyguy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 4.9 aftermarket (possibly)

    Quote Originally Posted by davesdeville
    Or you could buy a ~97 Deville in great shape for that much.

    Most N* swaps into GP or other FWD cars run 30-4000.00.
    It cost 60.000 dollars the last time I looked to get a GP turned into a RWD.

    The caddy would most likely cost around the same. Obviously this was a professional job and included a GN turbo powered 3.8l

    To have a company take your car into their shop and swap in a new totally rebuilt engine and transaxle is not cheap.

    The donor engine alone is always cheaper and gets people through the door.. They figure the rest should be a few hundred dollars. lol

    I have yet to find a shop selling custom motor mount fabrication and engine mounting for a few hundred dollars. Most cheap shops charge at least 65.00hr. So in 4-8 hours the shop will have measured cut welded and mounted your engine??? It takes a few weeks to do it.

    The hard part is getting a worthy shop owner who is capable to do it for less.

    There are people who have done it themselves and if they jig out a kit then they can afford to sell it for fab cost. But in most cases it costs more to get serious custom work done.

    At least once a day I get a request for a N* swap for a few hundred dollars.. Call top quality builders and ask and the cheapest you will find is around 10-15000.00 if the guy likes you.

    For example Cadillac hotrod fabricators. Ask him how much he would charge if you want a turbo engine dropped into your Cadillac ..min. 40000.00 if you are lucky.

    Donít take this the wrong way but the fact is custom fabrication is not cheap.

    Ty

  11. #10
    elwesso's Avatar
    elwesso is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: 4.9 aftermarket (possibly)

    Fact is, these cars just arent worth that much.......

    I can nearly guarntee you could get a supercharger or turbo setup, custom, for 9600......

  12. #11
    Shoehorn is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    The 4.9L is a popular fiero swap.

    Some people only look at displacement, and given the choice of a 4.5L or a 4.9L they think "bigger is better". This is not the case.

    The 4.5L and 4.9L share the same bore size. The 4.9L just has a longer stroke, which is good for low end torque, but can't rev high.

    The fiero in full factory trim weighs in at about 2500 lbs. It doesn't need any more torque. The shorter stroke and reduced rod angle of the 4.5L allows it to rev higher than the 4.9L. Considering that the mod is usually performed on a 3 speed automatic (highest torque rating, and no need to plug and redrill a flywheel.), the 4.5L is, for most, the better candidate.

    Now the lunatics who like to replace tiny fiero clutches monthly, and run the weak getrag (self-disassembling) 5-speed or the Muncie 4-spd transmissions would gain more from the 4.9 because they have more gears, and don't have to shift at 7000 rpm to go fast.

    My 87 GT is getting the 4.5L. I'll pass on the 5000 rpm redline. thnx.

    Sorry, I have to spout off all of that every time someone mentions putting a bus engine in a sports car. Obsessive compulsive thing.

  13. #12
    speedyguy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 4.9 aftermarket (possibly)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shoehorn
    The 4.9L is a popular fiero swap.

    Some people only look at displacement, and given the choice of a 4.5L or a 4.9L they think "bigger is better". This is not the case.

    The 4.5L and 4.9L share the same bore size. The 4.9L just has a longer stroke, which is good for low end torque, but can't rev high.

    The fiero in full factory trim weighs in at about 2500 lbs. It doesn't need any more torque. The shorter stroke and reduced rod angle of the 4.5L allows it to rev higher than the 4.9L. Considering that the mod is usually performed on a 3 speed automatic (highest torque rating, and no need to plug and redrill a flywheel.), the 4.5L is, for most, the better candidate.

    Now the lunatics who like to replace tiny fiero clutches monthly, and run the weak getrag (self-disassembling) 5-speed or the Muncie 4-spd transmissions would gain more from the 4.9 because they have more gears, and don't have to shift at 7000 rpm to go fast.

    My 87 GT is getting the 4.5L. I'll pass on the 5000 rpm redline. thnx.

    Sorry, I have to spout off all of that every time someone mentions putting a bus engine in a sports car. Obsessive compulsive thing.
    I agree and the 4.9 have limitations based on the stroke issue and really I suggest a 4.0 l with good mods as my preference but thatís another story. The main reason for the 4.9 is the lumpy cam feel and major neck snapping torque to play hotrod with. I agree with the kit for those who are happy with a limit of around 350hp but want the umpf and wump wump wump of a torque monster.

    As for BUS lol I have recently seen a 3.8 being pushed by a bus turbo

    I was thinking of a bus engine, turbo of course, dropped on/in a geo
    As a kit.

    Ty

  14. #13
    ckucia is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 4.9 aftermarket (possibly)

    Quote Originally Posted by blkchrry92dvl
    I posted this in deville forum and got no response so far. The 5.0 liter conversion looks interesting; let me know what you guys think.

    http://www.domesticperformance.com/d...?cPath=2_20_89
    From what I've heard, the ASG engine looks like a good product.

    However, if you have less cash and more time, the mechanicals required aren't really that daunting to do the enlargement.

    The 4.x series is an aluminum block with cast iron sleeves. The 4.1 becomes the 4.5 via a larger bore. The 4.5 becomes the 4.9 via a longer stroke. Going from 4.9 or 4.5 to 5.0 would require having the cylinder sleeves bored out, and then going with aftermarket pistons and rings to fit the new bores. Definitely doable by a competent machine shop. 4.5 to 5.0 would require a new crank and rods. 4.1 to 5.0 would require new crank, rods, and 4.5/4.9 sleeves bored out. Don't know if you can bore the 4.1 sleeves out to 5.0. It would depend on the OD of the sleeves - 4.1 might be smaller overall, or they just might be thicker with the same OD.

    One problem is getting the computer to compensate for the larger displacement on the stock speed/density system. You're closer going from 4.9 to 5.0 than you are with 4.5 or 4.1 to 5.0. You could do it by bumping up the fuel pressure via an aftermarket adjustable regulator, but it might not be sufficient to pass emissions. You don't want the engine to run lean, so this is definitely an issue to address.

    You wouldn't see a huge performance increase from 4.9 to 5.0 - you're only talking a 2% increase in displacement. The cost of new pistons and having the sleeves bored is substantial, but not as much as the ASG drop-in solution. Going from 4.5 is around 11% increase, so it might be worth the money - you can pick up the 4.9 crank and rods relatively cheap at the boneyard.

    You could probably get more results cheaper by going with a mild nitrous set up, IMHO, especially starting with a 4.9. Keep in mind that bumping up the displacement will give you more low-end torque, but that will also put more stress on your transaxle than the high end (WOT) increase of nitrous, especially if you go easy on the throttle during the launch and the 1/2 shift.

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