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Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

20K views 80 replies 11 participants last post by  eldo92 
#1 · (Edited)
Well, lately every Delco part I've bought either through the dealer or authorized Delco Distributor has gone bad within a few months. A Delco EVAP, a Delco Powersteering Pump that whinned immediatly, and now my Delco Water Pump has a very subtle droaning noise to it. Only 1.5 yrs old with 10k miles on that pump

I noticed a slight change in the engine sound/harmonics the other day(something no-one else could pickup) so I checked all accessories with a mechanics stethoscope and the water pump/bolts definitely are transmitting some harmonic noise. Not so much the pump housing because its probably isolated by the internal pump seal or somethng, and the block is silent where the bolts attach.

Someone once told me to see if the GM parts were still available when replacing any part as they are better than Delco like when my P.S. Pump failed. I think Delco P.S. Pumps are remaned anyway from Delco.

I'll have to check to see if they still make GM replacement pumps.

Does anyone remember seeing a post/thread about a guy who was discussing a different brand of a better quality water pump for a 4.9?

I thought it was here or maybe on the Fiero Forums. Can't remember but I think it was someone doing a 4.9 buidup and he named a water pump in his build/mod list and I had the the feeling that he was making a point that this other pump was better for some reason or rational.........................

So to add insult to injury, when the injectors were replaced, I decided to get a new Delco P.S. Pump to replace the original pump, and while everything was appart, why not replace the original GM Waterpump Too as the car has 89k ml.!

I also purchased a new Gates tensioner at that time but I didn't like the looks of it so it never was installed, but the original tensioner spring sprung this summer so the Gates went on after I called to inquier about the narrower body. Gate's confirmed that the tensioner has a better designed tension spring which is why its narrower. I'm now wondering if the original tensioner cause any stress on this pump which I also put on a new pump pulley due to an old issue.

I hate going by the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but it was the logical thing to do............

Anyone else having problems with AC Delco Water Pumps?

Thanks,

chris
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Here is my X-Mas, Hanakah, Kwanza, ect. gift to everyone::xlol:

Well, I came up with my own therory of what happend. Either my problem was the "El Cheapo" A/C Delco Chinese Water Pump I bought at a local parts distributor, or a failing tensioner that made the water pump go bad or a combination of both!

I'm posting this link as I've included some good info there about tensioners as it appears that the Gates Tensioners are a very good upgraded design from the O.E. that is a sealed unit and utilizes a round spring vs. a flat spring design that is inferior in design in the aftermarket:
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forum...6719-warning-4-9l-dayco-tensioner-pulley.html

Just for the record for everyone to refer to.........This is what I've concluded in my research: Yes; A/C Delco makes Chinese entry level parts also to compete with the rest of the aftermarket parts and deceptivly use their name to pedal cheap parts to consumers through their distributors and parts dealers boxed with the A/C Delco Name! I got this from a very knowledgable customer service rep. at Rockauto.com and even from A/C Delco 800 customer service line, but of course not as candid as I state!

A/C Delco makes an Asian made pump for the 4.9's which is Delco #252-720/ gm#88926234 (this pump is considered an "All Makes" pump stated on their site and Delco said fits many years/models) and their next statement is that its Oversea's Manufactured! They also said since its NOT specifically designed for each application, there could be minor clearance problems on certain applications but will still work as a replacement) This doesn't make sence as I think the truth is closer that the Chinese Delco Pumps have poor quality control! Also this pump does NOT come with a lifetime warranty like the other aftermarket chinese pumps but all I can think of is the scene in "Tommy Boy" about the "Lifetime Guarentee on the box" analogy.

This is what it reminded me of when buying this cheaper "Quality" A/C Delco 1yr warranty pump.
RockAuto sells this for $58.

A/C Delco also makes another pump that is available at the dealers and certain distributors, like Rockauto.com: Delco# 251-595 / gm#12369484 (this pump is noted as "OEM Design" and I was told by both Rock and Delco that this is a better quality North American Pump which could be made in U.S., Canada, Mexico and I'm sure we've all seen Delco stickers on their parts stateing these Mfg. areas which are their premium made line. This pump is $138 at RockAuto as Rock is a deep discounter of all parts including A/C Delco. I wish I would've known this important detail as I try to buy the best parts for my Eldo but always seem to run into some issue when doing so.......... So I went with the attractive lower price Delco Pump not knowing there was a quality difference. According to both Rock and Delco, they both stated: "you get what you pay for". Whatever:annoyed: But it would've been nice if they had a better description of each pump and difference in quality!

I've found that with many "High End Name Brand Products" in different industries that have a historically premium price attached to the "Brand Name" which is defined as a high quality item that you're purchasing. But in recent years, marketing experts found they could capitalize on their "Brand Name" and use it to produce lower quality items under the brand as intro. lines inorder to intice consumers into buying into the "Brand Name" but is usually made in China as the price is much lower than their High End line. :annoyed:! Well..............got caught again on this one.....:mad2:.

It's something to consider the higher priced pump since its somewhat involved to replace that pump, and the better pump can be bought $100+++ cheaper at Rock rather than buying the same better pump at the dealer.

Unless others can post here their success stories with other aftermarket pumps and how many miles are on them, it would be interesting to know who's pumps for this application are most dureable and reliable.

Now to my tensioner issue. I've learned a very valuable lesson and recieved a great deal of knowledge from a Tech at Gates. If you ever have a failed bearing in any of your belt driven componants, it's probably due to a failed tensioner and you can't go by the old O.E. imprinted scale on the tensioner to access it's condition as that was used for belt stretch but new belts do not stretch any more. Even if you don't have a failed tensioner, I would definitely advise everyone to replace your O.E. or older aftermarket tensioner as it wreaks a silent havoc on all drive accessory componants. I only wish someone would have advised me to do this earlier so I'm replacing every tensioner on all my cars now!

Over the past few years, I've had issues with shreading Goodyear Gatorback Belts every few years (10k miles) which was and indication of something wrong but all accessories looked aligned without any pulley damage. I had a new Delco P.S. whined terribly after the install but that had to be a bad pump. Although I left it on and it quieted down after 15-20 min. but it failed suddenly 9 months later.

Bad Pump or failing tensioner????? :bigroll:

I then had an alternator bearing fail on an original O.E. Alternator 1yr later (this summer) and this car only has 85K ml.

Age or failing tensioner?????? :bang2:

I wish I would've had the Gates tensioner put on when the injectors were replaced and every thing was pulled appart, but I was going to get a Delco Tensioner since the Gates looked so different but never did and now I think maybe if the Gates tensioner was installed at that time, my Delco P.S. Pump would not have failed, nor my alternator bearing fail, and finally the Chinese Delco Water Pump that is currently making a subtle droan.

Bad Water Pump or failing tensioner???????: :wtf: :gah:

Again, the original tensioner was ran on the new waterpump for 9 mo before finally replacing the tensioner when the spring fractured inside and lost tension.

Here are 2 e-mails from Gates regarding tensioners and my suspicous belt problem which we now believe was an indication of a failing tensioner:

> Hello Chris,
>
> Unfortunate to say, but a failing tensioner assembly can cause issues within the rest of the belt drive system. Most common failures are going to be the bearing area ie - water pump bearings, alternator bearings etc.
> ACDelco does not currently carry the Gates Brand Water Pumps, as these will be a NAPA, Gates & O'Reilly product.
>
> Hope this helps -
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Ridgeway
> Automotive Product Application
>
> Gates Corporation
> 1551 Wewatta St. 8N-A7
> Denver, CO 80202
> 303-744-4608
> MR7145@Gates.com



Hello Chris –

There is definitely an issue going on within the ABDS “system” if you are having edge wear / tearing on the belt.

Alignment issues within the system will cause the belt to track off center of the pulley / bearings. With that said, pulleys are designed to have the load carried in the middle of the bearing assembly. Moving that rotating mass pressure point is going to move the pulley / bearing out of its proper designed working parameter.

Misalignment can be from parallel issues to angular issues. Yes Gates does offer the laser alignment tool.Part number 91006
Tension issues can also cause this concern. If proper tension is not being held on the system, then the belt would
be allowed to walk inward and outward as the tensioner arm moved about.
Lack of tension could cause the belt to move in one or the other directions – as goes for excessive tension.
If the tensioner is faulty, this condition could co-exist.


Mark Ridgeway - AAM
Application Research Engineer
Aftermarket Product Application
ASE Certified & Parts Specialist
Labor Claims



The best advice is replace your tensioner if any doubt of its age.......as it can cause a range of harmonics transferred to the bearings of different componants through the belt from what I read in Gates Tech Info that I posted links to in the thread above........Gates even advises in their tech info to replace your tensioner at every belt change. I'd advice to replace it if you put on ANY new componant in the belt drive system if it hasn't been replaced recently: Alternator, P.S. Pump, W. Pump, A/C Comp.

Apparantly, a tensioner also plays a role to absorb "Shock/Harmonics" in addition to automatically tensioning the belt, much like a suspension shock absorber.

I wonder if this device actually prolongs the accessories in its design or is designed for convienience of driving the accessories with 1 belt and ease of changing the belt. Years ago there were no tensioners. Did the more flexible belts inherantly abosorb harmonics? Did componants last longer then? If so, better engineered componants or if not, the technology for the better made componants was not advance?

Just some random thoughts of a new engineered design of a tensioner that can create problems if it is failing. Who knew?:hmm: :noidea:

Hope many can gain from my experiances and make better informed decissions based on this info that I wished I had knowledge of.

Again, I'm interested to hear about ANY Water Pump failures including Delco, Chinese made Delco, or other brand of Aftermarket pump failures or non-failures and mileages on each pump to build some sort of reliability stats. on Waterpumps for all to read.

Well, that concludes this research project. Now I know.

".........and thats all I have to say about that!"
http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/home/blog_data/5/5/images/forestgump.jpg

Chris
 
#4 ·
I had the expensive pump last time. It lasted a couple years before it started leaking and when I took it apart it was becuase the pump was rusted out. So now it has a cheaper one on it. I don't know what the price difference is with the two pumps at rock auto unless maybe one of them is a discontinued number and they are trying to unload them.
 
#5 ·
Brougham: wow, I can't believe it. I was informed and assured the more expensive pump would've been the best pump from AC Delco. As I stated above, both Rock and Delco said the cheaper pump is made over seas and Delco# 251-595 / gm#12369484 is an OEM Design and higher quality that is "North American Made" from vendors in (Mexico, U.S. or Canada)

Are you sure you had this Delco# 251-595 / gm#12369484 and could you ask where you bought it to confirm which pump you were sold? If it was leaking, then the seal went. If the pump rusted out, what coolant type did you use and mix ratio? Did you do a flush before you installed the Delco Pump? Also, did your radiator fail before the pump went bad or after? I'm just thinking of electrolysis which is an E.Z. test: http://www.usaradiator.com/information/electrolysisProblemsMount.pdf

I'm disgusted with Delco over the past few years. So many bad parts. I wonder if these parts were sabotaged by many of GM's vendors who knew they weren't getting paid after GM filed for bankruptcy........GM put so many of their U.S. vendors out of business that they didn't pay which was criminal.

To: "the recluse" maybe you already knew everything above that I wrote but I'm sure many have learned a lot from what I posted. I've read this forum for 6 yrs+ now and never came accross the info I posted so I hope that it will help many as I would have been very appreciative to have read the same by another. I just like to document my experieces and research because many just post their advice without any documented evidence. I don't give a "Readers Digest Version" when I post but readers can make better informed decissions of what I do post.

chris
 
#8 ·
To: "the recluse" maybe you already knew everything above that I wrote but I'm sure many have learned a lot from what I posted. I've read this forum for 6 yrs+ now and never came accross the info I posted so I hope that it will help many as I would have been very appreciative to have read the same by another. I just like to document my experieces and research because many just post their advice without any documented evidence. I don't give a "Readers Digest Version" when I post but readers can make better informed decissions of what I do post.

chris
Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate a good write up on parts; but in most cases something like that can be condensed and abridged (I did go back and read it). Something long winded like that will lose 98% of the people you're trying to inform.

Now to your argument on parts and their production...

It has long been argued by me, though not here, that parts and the companies that manufacture them, for the most part, fail to engineer a quality product for any cars over 10 years old.

Case in point with the rusting out water pumps, could it be use of an inferior steel (a Chinese staple for maximizing production costs); one say with less carbon or nickel? More iron content means faster oxidation means less expected functionality and can be produced with less beefy machinery.

Chinese parts have been the wave of the future for the past 20 years now, and have really taken off in the last 5 years or so with the US market going primarily oversees. Nobody really cares (as far as manufactures, I'm know as a consumer I do) if you have a gripe over longevity vs cost of parts. From a business perspective, they're all trying to get you for as much as they can by wrapping (anything) in a "brand name" anyway :duck:

So I apologize if I came across as a dick, and I understand just what you were trying to do, but it seemed pretty overwhelming and lengthy for the average joe :holycrap:
 
#7 ·
It was the expensive one and came from a Cadillac dealer. I've never seen one rust either unless it was old. This one started leaking because it rusted under the paint so the gasket couldn't seal it. It started on the inside surface of the pump and moved out from there. It had the proper antifreeze mix and all that and the rad was never changed. My guess is that they changed suppliers or what they are making them out of to save money but are still slapping the Delco name on it with the jacked up price.
 
#9 ·
Fair enough; "the recluse",......... just trying to keep the readers well informed without the question of quick advise shot by the hip that many give.

I saw you posted here: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/209443-ugh-watter-pump-gasket.html in post #3, that you've replaced 6 of these pumps? All different cars? Or repeats on the same car?

If they were repeats, which Mfg. pump did you use, if not, are those pumps you replaced still functioning and if so, which pump Mfg did you use and how many miles? Not sure if you can track those cars now.

To: Brougham, which pump mfg did you go with and how many miles do you have on it? Also, can you check your coolant for electrolysis with a meter as outlined here: http://www.usaradiator.com/information/electrolysisProblemsMount.pdf

I'm very curious if you had stray current attacking that pump body even with the proper mix. But you should have had a rad or heatercore go first. Test with the car off then with ALL accessories on including the break lights, flashers ect. What coolant type were you using and use now?

Very interesting info "the recluse" gave in metalergy of the foreign metal. Looks like its going to be hard to find a good pump mfg especially in the aftermarket who probably change aftermarket vendors often.

If I had my old good water pump and P.S. pump that I replaced as preventative maintanance when taking everything appart to do injectors, I put those old parts back on.

I hope many will post their success or failures of Water Pump Brands they used to gain some stats.

chris
 
#10 · (Edited)
Fair enough; "the recluse",......... just trying to keep the readers well informed without the question of quick advise shot by the hip that many give.

I saw you posted here: http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/ht4100-4-1-4-5-4/209443-ugh-watter-pump-gasket.html in post #3, that you've replaced 6 of these pumps? All different cars? Or repeats on the same car?

If they were repeats, which Mfg. pump did you use, if not, are those pumps you replaced still functioning and if so, which pump Mfg did you use and how many miles? Not sure if you can track those cars now.
Did not note mfg of said water pumps. One was for a 4.5 in a '90 Eldo I had, the end of that pump came when my wife wrecked the car 40,000+ after I had changed it.

Another was for the 4.9 in my present Eldo that I changed when the cooling system was letting go. The car had sat almost a year and a half and the sediment was bad in the block and radiator so I replaced ALL aspects of the cooling system as a precautionary measure.

I replaced the water pump again when I had to replace the headgaskets on the same motor some 30,000+ miles later. I did this because the motor was out and the $50 spent seemed like a good insurance policy. It was AC Delco.

The other WP's were in various other 4.5 and 4.9's over the years, so no known information to present, however, for quite a few years after the installations I had no go backs pertaining to those units.


Very interesting info "the recluse" gave in metallurgy of the foreign metal. Looks like its going to be hard to find a good pump mfg especially in the aftermarket who probably change aftermarket vendors often.
I believe that this is the reason why parts houses change their suppliers(or the same suppliers change their lines) at least every 5 or so years, it keeps them from having to honor "lifetime" warranties. This has happened to me on MANY occasions..."No, we don't carry that brand (or that line) anymore...so we don't/won't honor manufacturer "A"s warranty with manufacturer "B"s product (line)".

In the end I feel it's energy lost in a pursuit of knowledge when the seemingly obvious is that corporations are out to screw you and the only thing you need to know is that it's coming, one way or another....:canttalk:

Good luck in your endeavors.
 
#11 ·
Yehp, I hear you. The same happened to me on my 91 Brougham and I even had the invoice jammed in my glove box for 9yrs on this lifetime pump and I called them on it just for the hell of it since I was getting a lot of bad Delco which they were giving me a hard time on too!!!!!!!!!! You should've seen their faces! They were moaning, "this is a 9yr old pump" I said "yes with a lifetime warranty"! They hadn't carried Airtex for years and they said the same to me that they no longer carry the brand so I was S.O.L. But they know me well since we have a corp. account so I was pretty mad and didn't want their shitty house brand pump after I researched it but they were eventually willing to replace it with that house pump that I didn't wan't.

This has happened many times on a lot of parts so I always get in touch with the district rep which was AirTex in this case. I couldn't believe that the rep arranged a factory replacement to me in I think 1-2 days sent from the factory this summer. Easiest factory rep. I ever dealt with for warranty. From my conversation with Airtex, they have been overtaken by these parts buying groups that parts store belong to of Chinese Vendors,....something like that as I can't remember the details, but my parts house was part of this now for profit margin, so Airtex has been very easy for warranty their pumps directly and I'm sure even their whole line. Still not sure about quality but they give the assurance their pumps are better than most out there.

Thanks for the reply,
I'm hoping for some other's to chime in with good or bad experiences on different brands of waterpumps for these 4.9's.

Regards,
chris
 
#12 · (Edited)
Well here's an update and I'll keep it short!

:banghead: :xcry: :banghead: :xcry: :cursin: :bomb:

I should have left the original O.E. Pump on that was still good with 89K miles!:hmm:

I decided to call my parts distributor again, on that A/C Delco Pump they sold me last year because when I gave them the 2 part numbers, one for the N. American made Delco pump (#251-595) they told me they never had it in their system and said they only sold the cheaper Delco Chinese "WonTon" Pump (#252-720), so I presumed I was sold the cheaper pump that I posted above.

But NOW, they no longer carry any Delco Pumps! Hey: "the recluse", how about that? :hmm:

The mgr there told me that everyone's getting rid of Delco because they are the worst for the Vendor to process warranty claims and the vendor ends up eating the part because Delco Reps make it as difficult as possible and want tons of paper work, customers reciept, and if purchased at wholesale for one's own use, no warranty! I've run into this even at the dealer and they have to fudge paperwork to get Delco to warranty parts! Unbelievable!

I've heard the Delco Dist. Reps go through and have each part tested and if it tests good, charge it back to the parts distributor. Almost looks like the Delco District Reps work on bonuses to deniy warrantly claims.

So I had them look up my invoice,..... and they infact sold me the expensive Delco Pump(#251-595) @ $140.

So that better Delco pump currently has a bearing failure with no fluid leakage so I presume the seal it still good, maybe......., and the pump has about 8K ml. which was installed in Aug. of 2010.

So it looks like "Brogham" had his expensive Delco Pump rust out and now mine with a bearing failure........I don't know who's pump to go with now? All aftermarket pumps will be Asian made as discussed previously except for the more expensive Delco# which is now starting to have a reputation.

Maybe I'll try a NAPA pump or I'm hoping Airtex/ASC demands better quality control which is still a chinese pump as seen here by their overseas vendor listing: See vendor #20 down on this page if your curious: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/water-pump-for-cadillac.html

I don't know what else to say on the subject other than, :wtf: and :wtf2: !
And if your original pump is good, don't change it for preventative manitanece!

chris
 
#13 ·
Well sucks. I don't know what make the pump is I'm using now it was whatever the parts store had. It probably doesn't make much of a difference because chances are there is only one company actually making these things and every other company just buys it and throws it in their own box. I changed it back in the spring.
Funny you should mention the Brougham water pump because I did it on that car this year too. It was leaking after taking it out of storage. Between both cars the one on the Deville is actually easier to change.
 
#15 ·
HUF, which Delco part# do you have? Also, are there any other part#'s, production #'s or any other codes ect. on the box or stamped on the pump? Is there any indication on the box or pump of where the pump is made?

How much do you want for the pump? P.M. me if you want?

Also, what waranty are you giving on this pump?!!!!!!! :hmm: :bonkers: :rofl: :shtf:


I'm going to track down the local Delco Rep. tomorrow?
:punch:

I'm not sure what the hell to do? I wish I had the time and energy to come up with some modification to eliminate the factory pump, fabricate an external coolant cross-over in place of the pump, reconfigure a different belt and/or alternative drive belt route, and use one of those performance external inline electric coolant pumps like this one from Stewart:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EMP-E558AR/

Now that I came up with that "dream" I think maybe it was done but I many be wrong........I remember coming accross one of the Fiero Guys or someone here with a Cad who did a build up and showed photos and relocated the 4.9 Alternator to I think make room for a supercharger or something that the Alternator on top was in the way of. I'm sure this guy put the alternator where the A/C Comp. was and didn't use A/C.........or something like that. I'm now wondering if that guy also eliminated his factory waterpump in this project and used an inline electric pump.

I know for the Acura/Honda's there's a factory elimation kit for the o.e. pump and uses one of those inline electric pumps on the upper rad. hose which is a slick setup!

Anyone know what project I'm referring to on that 4.9 build up?

I'll have to go look.

If I have to go back with a Delco Pump, I'm wondering how flexible RockAuto is with their Delco Warranties since my local warehouses are being a bunch of jerks and upholding the 1yr Delco warranty policy. I'm thinking that Rock may have Delco by the balls and may give better customer service but I'd have to call and ask them how long past the Delco Warranty they'll replace the pump if it fails.

I wish I knew what pump to go with for reliability?

Chris
 
#17 · (Edited)
HUF, which Delco part# do you have? Also, are there any other part#'s, production #'s or any other codes ect. on the box or stamped on the pump? Is there any indication on the box or pump of where the pump is made?

How much do you want for the pump? P.M. me if you want?

Also, what waranty are you giving on this pump?!!!!!!! :hmm: :bonkers: :rofl: :shtf:
Chris
No warranty, I guess. ACD# 252-720 GM#88926234 "Made in USA from components mfg in China". The extra Fel-Pro gasket is made in USA,
 
#16 ·
I guess I was thinking of this thread but I still think someone put an electric inline waterpump on a 4.9 and bypassed the org. pump. I wonder if the orig. pump can stay in place, remove the impeller, and bypass the pulley with a different belt route and use an inline electric pump? Problem solved??????:noidea:

This link has tons of good info and has links to some older high perf. builds incuding the Alternator Relocation but still used the orig. pump configuration:
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482,page=7

Somewhere I've seen photos of a "jewl" of a 4.9 engine that was chromed out with red accents and the photo was taken when on a motor stand. It was a real work of art! It was red with all aluminum smoothed an polished including the mageasum valve covers with red paint accents. I'm thinking that motor was the one that maybe had some waterpump modification and the one I was thinking of. Anyone know which site that motor is on?

I thought it was this site but it wasn't: http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49a.html

chris
 
#18 · (Edited)
Thanks HUF, Very strange as I would've thought it was a Chineese assembled pump with parts from China too. I have to find out what the expensive pump says on it and where its made for the hell of it.

Maybe, "Made in USA by the Night Shift! :alchi:

I'd love to bypass that pump somehow and not have to worry about what quality I'm getting or where it's made. :annoyed:

chris
 
#19 · (Edited)
This is the motor I was talking about. It is the 3rd and 4th photo in this thread below and is a 4.5 Allante motor. Not sure if anyone has seen this motor on another site but I have an e-mail into the Fiero Expert over at Fiero Addiction who can probably give me good advise on the waterpump issues ect.
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482

chris

UPDATE: My computer wasn't displaying all of the photos on that site above yesterday. That site was infact the site I had seen the photo of that motor which is a actually a 4.9 with an Allante Intake/Injection and the guy mentioned a the future use of an electric pump but he showed a pic. of a HEMI Mezeier Pump:

See Photo 3-4 here: http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482

and the same thread pg. 5 for another pic of the 4.9 with Allante Intake:
http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482,page=5

Lots of good performance mods on that thread like custom fabricated headers, double roller timing chain set, Perf. Delt Cams, and smaller gear reduction/ more powerful starter mod. ect.

The Electric Remote Waterpump still seems like a good idea but would take some messing around to either:
#1. remove the impeller and run the belt on the pulley like an idler pulley, or.....

#2. remove the pulley and cut off the pulley mount and come up with a new belt drive route, since the 1st way the belt would still be tensioning and turning the pulley of a new replacement pump and the risk of bearing/seal failure could still happen even w/o the impeller.

I wonder if removing the impeller; coolant would flow corectly through the pump houseing with a remote inline electric pump?

It would still be great to turn a known good pump into just a belt idler and again remove the internal impeller. I wonder what the Horsepower Gain would be if eliminating the impeller or pump pulley?

Last post of the YEAR 2010!!!!!!!!!
 
#20 · (Edited)
Yep, had to make that post above before 2011!:bouncy:

Forgot to add this link below which is my idea to duplicate of how Mezeire makes an idler in place of a waterpump for the Honda's but I think one would have to use an orig. 4.9 pump with better seals/bearings instead of taking a chance on a replacement pump and use it w/o the impeller: http://www.meziere.com/ps-1333-1269-wpk50026.aspx

I'll have to run my ideas by the British V8 Forum and Fiero Forums who swap and modify the Cadillac 4.9's and post my findings back here?

I also got an e-mail from "Allante Source" and he had problems with the cheaper Delco pump that failed in less than 20k miles and his orig. was still good but decided to replace it when doing a Timing Cover Gasket. He also had one replaced by the dealer under extended warranty back in 1999 and now has 130k on that pump w/o a problem

So "the recluse" made a very valid comment above when he stated:
"It has long been argued by me, though not here, that parts and the companies that manufacture them, for the most part, fail to engineer a quality product for any cars over 10 years old."

Hopefully others again will share their experiences with their replacement pumps good or bad!


Also came accross this TSB by Airtex/ASC that may help anyone reading this thread:
http://asc-ind.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Cadillac-Water-Pump-Installation.pdf
http://asc-ind.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wp627.pdf

Talked to Permatex for when my bad Delco pump gets replaced, and they recomended using their Hylomar #85249 on both sides of the gasket or a better product w/o using a gasket, (metal to metal) use #22071 which may help if their is dimpleing in the timing cover as described in the TSB's above.
http://www.permatex.com/products/Au...ng_Formula_Gasket_Dressing_Flange_Sealant.htm

http://www.permatex.com/products/Au...Water_Pump_Thermostat_RTV_Silicone_Gasket.htm

In the past, I've always used their Indian Shelac or:
http://www.permatex.com/products/Au...Permatex_High_Tack_Spray-A-Gasket_Sealant.htm

Which is going to be really hard to remove. Hopefully their gasket remover will work or can recommend some other solevant.

Happy New Year,

chris
 
#21 ·
UPDATE:

Well, just thought I'd drop in and give an update on which pump I went with.

After thorougly researching aftermarket water pumps for the 4.9 above,,,,,............and if you got this far reading through my long posts above,.............. I decided to go with an A1 Cardone Pump "Select Series" #55-16111 that I got from Rockauto.com

After speaking and e-mailing Cardone Technical Services, they gave me a Tech. Bullitin about the troublesome 4.9 pumps from the O.E. aftermarket a.k.a "AC Delco" and other aftermarket pumps in which they redesigned both their Reman. Pump bearing in pump #58329 and eventually upgraded their "Select" Pump line bearing for the #5516111 pumps.

See Link:
http://www.cardone.com/English/Club/... 58-0008.pdf


I was confused and e-mailed Cardone a few times on which pump had the newer bearing design and this is what I was told by Cardone Tech Service:

"The Select Pump has the redesigned bearing which is one-piece, double-row bearing. All the Select units have this bearing. "

Raymond L. Fitzgerald, Jr.
Senior Technical Service Representative
ASE Certified Cardone

"Good Morning Chris,

The redesigned bearing on our reman pump was introduced some 10 years ago. This bearing included a ball and a roller bearing with a longer housing.
Our Select - 55-16111 has the same length housing but a ball and ball bearings rather than ball/roller."

Ray Will ASE Certified Cardone


I just wish I had my original O.E. pump that I decided to replace as preventative maintance because I can only wonder how well of a design it actually was. If anyone can confirm they have an original pump and it has failed, it would be interesting to take it appart to see how the O.E. bearing is made. From what I researched, most of the replacement pump bearings can't take the torsional loads of the accessory drive and fail early like my expensive Canadian made Delco #251-595. I'm still tempted to take that pump appart but when I get around to it, I'm going to get in touch with my local Delco Rep to see if he'll give me a credit.


Hope this helps someone to make a better Water Pump Choice for the 4.9's
 
#22 ·
I bought the $50 Delco pump for my 4.9 project. The belt rides off the back of the top of the pulley and rubs against the housing. We are pretty sure the root problem is that the pump housing is stamped wrong, resulting in the pulley axis riding at an angle. Poor stamping is typical of Chinese parts

Let us know how the Cardone part works out. I want to try the NAPA brand myself (used them for my Jeep engine swap), but it will be a while.
 
#24 ·
Never went as far to analyyze bearing types and stuff, but I replaced the original pump in my '95 with an AC Delco somewhere around 145k and lasted till I sold it.

Replaced the pump on my '90 around 160k with a Cardone unit and am at 185k now. So far, so good.

A relative has 195k on his ORIGINAL pump from '89, still going as a daily driver :worship:

I myself never really noticed any quality issues with these pumps across brands. Typically the factory pumps fail around 100k-150k, which really isn't out of line. After that, replacements seem more frequent, but it sounds like it's more from poor workmanship than the pumps themselves as they are generally gasket failures.
 
#25 ·
Ehall; From what I remember in my research, Napa Pumps for our 4.9's will be either Gates or Airtex/ASC and from what I could tell, there's no easy way to determine who's pump you will be getting.

Here's a TSB on coolant leaks from Airtex/ASC I just came across just so people know when replacing the pump:
http://airtexwaterpumps.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Cadillac-Water-Pump-Installation1.pdf

I just checked the TSB from Cardone that I posted and it didn't work. Here is the Cardone TSB Main Page and scroll down to: 58-329 Cadillac Water Pump Bearing - PT 58-0008
http://cardone.com/english/club/Products/PUMPS/Protech/Tech_Bulletins/

Here's the direct link again on Cardones improved bearing design for their Reman. and Select Pumps: http://cardone.com/english/club/Products/PUMPS/Protech/Tech_Bulletins/PT 58-0008.pdf
 
#27 ·
This is interesting about the poor quality of AC Delco parts. I do a lot of auto repair on all makes and I have been running into problems with NAPA, and Autozone parts being defective right out of the box or shortly thereafter also. There was a time (in your grandfathers day) when you could diagnose and repair cars by replacing parts one at a time and feel secure that this part is new so we can eliminate that. But no more I guess, with the flight of manufacturing to communist China and the poor quality control and for that matter accountabilty with the distance and all. The only recourse we have is to learn how to check those parts right out of the box, before we install them but sometimes this is not possible as in this case of premature failure of AC Delco waterpumps. OEM parts are junk too!!!!
 
#29 ·
Update of my own:

Another water pump failed on my 4.9 after only approximately 10,000...bearing failure. Replaced it with a brand new Cardone part from Advanced Auto for around $55.00. Who knows as to longevity, but 10,000 miles sucks for a water pump...just saying.

When removed, no problem with rust.
 
#32 ·
THE RECLUSE: What pump did you have that only lasted 10K?

As I mentioned before, if anyone hasn't replaced their original tensioner, best to replace it with the new Gates design tensioner to try and prevent bearing failures in ALL componants in the accessory drive. (Alt, W.P., P.S. Pump, Idler.)

From my research, and own experiance, I can only wonder if in fact the failing tensioner caused all my problems of a failed P.S. Pump Bearing, Alt Bearing, and WaterPump Bearing on a new waterpump that was replaced as preventative maintanance all within a a year or so.
 
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