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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Originally Posted by cadchris drewsdeville: Do you remember what type of coolant you used in your systems with the pumps ...
  1. #61
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post


    drewsdeville: Do you remember what type of coolant you used in your systems with the pumps that lasted or failed?

    My personal cars were/are always Prestone brand Dexcool. Varied amongst other's cars.

  2. #62
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Dex-Cool is really bad stuff to use and anyone using it is playing "Coolant Russian Roulette" with 1/2 the chambers loaded!

    Just do a Google on "Dex-Cool Problems, Dex-Cool gelling or sludging, Dex-Cool Class Action" that happened around 2008.

    Here's some very specific problems of Dex-Cool and late model gasket failures. Our 4.9's probably don't use this type of gasket material, but Dex-Cool came out in 1996 for those model years engines that were re-designed to use that coolant, but not well enough because it created ton's of various problems!

    AS SEEN IN THE FOLLOWING LINKS HERE:

    http://www.zillamotorsports.com/DEX/

    http://www.getahelmet.com/jeeps/maint/dexcool/

    Dex-Cool has known problems with sludgeing and gelling due to any air contamination in the system. Mostly, if you have a leaky intake or bad rad. cap and introduce air into the cooling system or even a very small headgasket leak introducing air, it will make Dex-Cool turn very acidic and attack certain types of gaskets and seals, turn to sludge/gel and clog heater-cores, and rads. ect……….. GM even issued a TSB which I can post on how to flush a sludged up Dex-Cool System using the old discontinued "Preston AS100" cleaner/flush. It was a 2 sided can of 2 dry ingrediants that you can still buy at the hardware store "Oxalic Acid a.k.a. Wood Bleach" and "Arm and Hammer Washing Soda" as the neutralizer found at the grocery store. I"ve done this many times on all my cars for a good agreasive flush instead of the junk they sell at the parts stores.........some old dealerships still stock the AS100.... I've even done the Cascade Dry Dishwasher Powder flush trick also: See this link:
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1687693

    The TSB procedure is posted here in blue Post #17:
    http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...ner-flush.html

    Good write up here also but back in 2003 before the "Class Action" over Dex-Cools later problems and flushing a Dex-Cool contaminated-slugged system:
    http://tinyurl.com/7o59nxa


    The cooling systems that use Dex-Cool also had pressurized recovery tanks to keep the air out. If anyone stays with Dex-Cool, they need to have a good rad. cap, and totally burb the system of air........AND CHECK IT OFTEN. I would question everyone who had 4.9 water pump failures to see if they were using Dex-Cool but I never used it in my systems with the failing pumps and only used Green Ethylene Glycol and like I stated before, maybe the bearing seals in these new after-market pumps are no longer compatible with Green Ethylene Glycol which is causing so many aftermarket water-pump failures.

    I’m going to contact a coolant testing lab tomorrow and a few others to see what they think or if they will examine my pumps and can determine what type of seals were used.

  3. #63
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    I'm well aware of the internet Dexcool wars.

    I don't buy any of the Dexcool myths (yes, MYTHS - no one has been able to build enough facts against it to prove it to be an inferior product yet - and it's been in service for over 15 years now.)

    Dexcool has been employed in almost all of my vehicles since I could drive. I've yet to experience any abnormal situations from it's use. All cooling system repairs were standard and inevitable.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Dexcool Wars... Internet Myths... are you kidding me??????? First of all, do you know how hard it is to get into Federal Court to have a lawsuit filed let alone to have enough merit to be classified as a "CLASS ACTION" by a Federal Judge or State Superior Court?

    Do you not believe they had highly educated expert witness and PHD's in the field of chemical engineering in order to not have the case dismissed in the preliminary evidentiary hearings so the Class Action would not be dismissed on a meritless complaint?

    I'm sure the expert witness used a "Hewlett-Packard 5710-A dual-column gas chromatograph with flame analyzation detectors" on the Dex-Cool?????? I direct you to a familiar transcript and hope you are not one of the witnesses hanging outside the "Sack-O-Suds"!
    http://www.law.indiana.edu/instructi...ousinVinny.htm

    Just to let you know, I do and have a lot of experience in the legal field and the Dex-Cool litigation was no myth which is why GM settled. Trust me, GM had to settle out BIG TIME for their lousy invention.

    You probably have not experienced any problems because:
    #1. You have maintained your cooling system and not allowed air to enter, or
    #2. you were lucky enough to not have air enter your system.
    #3, With your long term use of Dex-Cool, it obviously does not affect the 4.9 seals or gaskets and
    #4. Dex-Cool has been reformulated a few times by the aftermarket to avoid patent infringement of the original forumula, but it still has those attributes of being unstable when air is introduced into the system and GM even side-stepped the language of the root of the problem in their TSB on how to flush a system that was clogged from the Dex-Cool reacting to air. Read between the lines of that TSB and why it was issued. Much of that language was not GM Engineers at work, but their legal team hard at work when writing that TSB so as not to admit any guilt with the problems Dex-Cool caused.

    That's my legal take on it anyway...........

    Here's a site that's not a myth: Just a small portion of the litigation of GM trying to get out of not paying claims by filing Ch.11.
    http://www.dexcoolsettlement.com/
    http://www.motorsliquidationdocket.com/

    THE SETTLEMENT IN CALIFORNIA Superior Court:
    Fact: Not Myth: $16.5 million in attorney fees
    Fact: Not Myth: $1.55 million documented costs (expert witness included)
    Fact: Not Myth: $140,000 divided among 80 Plaintiffs.

    So Ordered by the Judge: Honorable Robert Freedman 10-23-2008
    http://www.dexcoolsettlement.com/CA_finalapproval.pdf



    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    I'm well aware of the internet Dexcool wars.

    I don't buy any of the Dexcool myths (yes, MYTHS - no one has been able to build enough facts against it to prove it to be an inferior product yet - and it's been in service for over 15 years now.)

    Dexcool has been employed in almost all of my vehicles since I could drive. I've yet to experience any abnormal situations from it's use. All cooling system repairs were standard and inevitable.

  5. #65
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Sorry, I just don't buy it. You can tell me until you are blue in the face that Dexcool is the devil - doesn't change my opinion.

    If only certain seals are affected by it, then I have to assume that there's a problem with those specific seals. Not the fluid. After all, the settlement of the class action lawsuit didn't remove Dexcool from the shelves or from new GM vehicles - the result was seal replacement for those affected. None of the resulting covered repairs required the permanent removal of Dexcool (or the discontinued use of specific formulas) from the vehicle because the lawsuit provided NO facts proving that Dex was the actual source of any problems. Only sub-par seals were blamed, and again - ONLY on certain engines of certain years - not ALL engines equipped with Dex were affected.

    The links you posted are interesting, but conflicts over coverage really don't say anything for the bottom line here. They say nothing about Dexcool itself.

    The fact that, in your last post, you can assume that 4.X's might be able to handle it says a lot - these engines were retired before Dex was even introduced, yet it appears to have no effect on them. If the problem was Dex, wouldn't it be an even greater threat to all engines and gaskets designed and produced before Dex's introduction?

    No air in the cooling system? There's plenty in my overflow bottle which, as long as the level in the rad doesn't lower significantly due to leaks, doesn't even experience any circulation. If Dex + air in the system was a problem, the Dex in my overflow bottle had plenty of time to gel up and eat away the plastic. Yet, it has never done so.

    FWIW, I've owned and used Dex in more GM engines than just the 4.X... I've also used in in a number of engines from the 60 degree V6 family with no abnormal results. That family of engines was one of the supposed affected.

    And yes, I've replaced many a intake, head, and water pumps gaskets in GM vehicles equipped with conventional green coolant. Those repairs would have been necessary whether the system was filled with Dex or not.

    To make myself clear, I don't find the lawsuit itself to be an internet myth - recognize that it occured - I find the continued blame of Dexcool to be the myth as it has still never been proven.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    I remember reading this thread around the time I signed up here. I don't think I have ever in my life heard of water pump failure on the same engine so many times. Thousands of them on the road out there yet, and will be in the future. I would say the the success rate would be far greater than the Cadillac N* regarding water pumps. I even know of a lot of different Toyatas that have water pump failure in excess far worse the the 4.x engines, and some people think they are just the real shit, but we won't go there.

    The Dexcool thing, I took care of a mixed fleet of trucks, and we ran it in all of the GM trucks without a single problem. All of the Fords we ran what they had in them from the factory and same with the Dodges. I only had problems with one Ford every 100k, and it was a problem from day one with the water pump eating up impellors, never leaked. Ok I know I got off the subject of the 4.9 water pump and coolant brand, but I seriously doubt any of the aftermarket pumps are totally to blame here. Usually if there is a consistant problem it is being caused from something else, and you may never find that problem.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by dennis93coupe View Post
    ...Ok I know I got off the subject of the 4.9 water pump and coolant brand, but I seriously doubt any of the aftermarket pumps are totally to blame here. Usually if there is a consistent problem it is being caused from something else, and you may never find that problem.
    +1 in sentiment....
    Ever thought maybe your timing cover may be warped/machined wrong? Something external has to be affecting your pumps....
    Faded Crest and Faded Crest like this.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by the recluse View Post
    Ever thought maybe your timing cover may be warped
    Win.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Or maybe a crank damper not centered, machined wrong possibly. AC compressor hub or clutch, might even be one of the other idler pulleys. If your belt doesn't run smooth and the tensioner is jumping you might find that is part of your problem. I start looking for a problem somewhere else.
    Faded Crest and Faded Crest like this.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Thanks for the suggestions. I know a lot gets lost in translation of my long winded, hopefully informative prior posts, but the drivebelt system appears to be o.k., although I will take these suggestions under carefull consideration. In the past, I began to explore the same when researching some very unique testing devices that I'll post up as I'm waiting for reply's to my inquiries.........I also had 2 new Gates Tensioners installed, the 2nd was a freebie from Gates and they tested my first tensioner which was allegedly confirmed to be fine but will not discourage me from my own remedial test if I can locate a test instrument to satisfy my curiosity.

    I have some very interesting info to post since June 10th as a follow up and a ironic development of the DexCool Debate!

    Very busy over the past few days with "Legal Stuff"..........

    I leave you with some points to ponder and I know this in not a "Legal Forum" and realize that many did not recognize the significance in the DexCool Settlement.
    $16.5 million in legal fees to recover $140,000 in damages divided by 80 Class Members at $1750 per member??????????!!!!!!!!!!!


    Does this look odd to anyone? I know many here probably don't have any legal experiance and by the grace of god, I hope you are all spared from the legal system.

    This was a "Settlement" in order to NOT go to court for trial. These fees were not awarded in a trial by jury or judge as those fees would be deemed excessive and abuse of the legal system! However anything is fair game when you settle out of court even if the judge stamps it!

    In short, $16.5 million in legal fees is considered a bit excessive and is basically a "Legal Shake Down or Legalized Extortion"........they proved their case and GM gave the Attorney's representing the Class "Hush Money" to drop the case to have it "Dismissed with Prejudice.".................$16.5 MILLION.......when the DexCool case was settled every attourney from here to Albuquerque and back must've been foaming at the mouth! The legal fees were in reality under $1 million and would've been more appropriate in proportion to expert witness fees/forensic testing ect. and in damages being sought.

    I started to write a legal brief on the 10th to post but stopped myself ....wrong type of forum.......I figured that maybe I shouldn't bore you guys with legal case theory, but you'd be surprised what I found out and stumbled upon which is not unusual with my investigations.............I found the foremost FORENSIC TESTING LAB IN THE COUNTRY FOR THE DEXCOOL CASE!........and no........they're not talking being bound by the terms of their agreement, out of court settlement, attorney client privilege and client confidentiality, but I may post them up here depending on future discussions, as I may submit some of my coolant to be analysed to see what maybe going on with it ! I'm glad I didn't use DexCool or they would probably have to recluse themselves from testing it.

    Anyway, "The PROOF of DexCool" was buried and filed next to the "Roswell File" and we'll never know the truth until, or if the DexCool Scandal resurfaces in the legal world some day.

    Save your receipts if you use DexCool just in case but I believe that all producers have secretly ironed out the problems by a change in formulation of each brand of DexCool........
    I"ll see if the "back channels" are still open and what I can find out.

  11. #71
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post

    Anyway, "The PROOF of DexCool" was buried and filed next to the "Roswell File" and we'll never know the truth until, or if the DexCool Scandal resurfaces in the legal world some day.


    Exactly why I call it a myth. As far as we know, nothing has been proven in court. On top of that, I have not experienced related problems in over 10 years of it's use - I've been provided no valid facts that support the suggestion that I'm playing "coolant russian roulette". Evidently, I've had longer pump life than you, on the cheapest aftermarket pumps, WITH DEXCOOL! According to Google, I'm currently accomplishing the impossible!

    I must be doing something right, or I'm very lucky. In either case, I see no reason to change what I've been doing. Works for me.

    Good luck to you in your quest, good sir.

  12. #72
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    No not a myth, but a legal settlement...OMG why do you think that GM just handed over $16.5 million????...

    In the legal system, that's why most cases never go to trial. "I got you by the Conjones pay up or else!" Its a shakedown! They proved their case w/o going to court! We are just not privy to the evidence they uncovered......or where this could've gone. Trust me, I have ton's of experience with the legal system both State and Federal, and lawyers are all scumbags who all will sell out their clients and work both sides to maximize their gains in a case and will sell out their mothers, grandma's and the Pope if they had to...........this is why I now litigate my cases from my extensive legal background.

    Any Class Action Lawyers use their clients as a mechanism to make huge amounts of undeserved fees which skirts the edges of the R.I.C.O Act........

    Or the Plaintiff's investigators had video of one of the GM Execs with a Colombian Hooker doing Coke......ever hear about John Delorean? An x-friend of the family was his "personal assistant" for many years and she has his 64' 427 Vette in her procession where I've tried to investigate if its been deemed stolen somewhere along the lines..........glad I cut her off because I would've been working on it and I see it parked in a Condo parking garage all the time!

    Do you get what I'm talking about? $16.5 large one's were paid not to take this DexCool Case to trial which would've uncovered something that would've led to claims potentially in the hundreds of millions but the Class Action Lawyers would've been in for the long haul litigating of 10yrs+ before getting into court and going to trial. They get the proof, slam it down on the table during court ordered mediation, and give the other side an ultimatum....... the other side knows they also want out to get their money asap to move on to the next case so GM had a little leverage and probably "offered" $10 million to shut up and go away quietly and they said you can afford $16.5 + damages + our legal costs! Oh god........I need to move this whole thing over to one of the legal boards.............who will all unanimously agree they had the proof because if they didn't or it was a bluff, GM would've counter-sued for a $100 million!

    Your's and other's successes with DexCool has so many variables even before considering your luck. From what I think, DexCool has had many different versions of additive packages in the aftermarket so that's a huge variable to many's success and those who like myself who black-list the name stemming from this litigation is only a fear of the unknown which is logical. My new fear of the unknown is not to change an OEM GM Part unless its bad just like my original pump was good and I stupidly elected to replace it as preventative maintenance when everything was apart which has led to this whole fiasco.

    It would be my educated guess that the aftermarket producers of DexCool would re-formulate the additive package after secretly learning of DexCools "original formulation" problems" which makes a lot of sense, because they'd be in the same boat as GM was in the past. The Class Action Lawyers are still sitting on their evidence and knowledge and the aftermarket knew not to screw around even if they said they changed the additive package as to no infringe on the original patent........

    I will admit its a complex matter beyond many including myself, but from the legal point of view, I recognize what occured in the litigation and my recent introduction to the Forensic Lab's restraint on talking about DexCool who did the testing in the case is sufficient testimony that there's some major issue.

    Finally, the name "DexCool" will continue to carry a bad reputation.........I even read the ZR1 guys have been having problems lately with head gaskets swelling on DexCool either OE Dex or Aftermarket which maybe revealing itself later since those cars aren't daily drivers.

    Finally, I think I just discovered that my Delco Pump was run on Green Silicated Ethylene Glycol and the 2nd Cardone pump was run on the new "Universal Silicate/Phosphate Free" coolant which is why I want to have it tested just to know let alone see if anything shows up.

    Spoke to Dayco today, and Gates a few times including some other's in the industry and they firmly believe its a simple inferior bearing design that's out in the market over the past years. There have been quite a few others on this forum and other forums with the same experience as me so there is a problem with these pumps as seen in my posts 40 and 44......and I made the joke about a Class Action over these pumps. Round up 80 people, file in Federal Court get everyone's old pumps examined by a lab and I'd distribute the extortion fees to the members of the class!

  13. #73
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    delete

  14. #74
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post

    Do you get what I'm talking about? $16.5 was paid not to take this DexCool Case to trial which would've uncovered something that would've led to claims potentially in the hundreds of millions but the Class Action Lawyers would've been in for the long haul litigating of 10yrs+ before getting into court and going to trial.
    I do get it. I understand that nothing was uncovered. I've posted this 3 times now. I also understand that the paid 16.5 mil was advantageous to GM whether there was something to be uncovered or not. It was a necessity either way, a cheap one at that - you can't make any logical conclusions based on it.

    Nothing uncovered, it's been working as advertised for me and many others. That's all that matters to me. Not google searches or ZR1 owners. It's a myth to me.

    Good luck to you, sir.

  15. #75
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    ..........


    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    I do get it. I understand that nothing was uncovered. I've posted this 3 times now. I also understand that the paid 16.5 mil was advantageous to GM whether there was something to be uncovered or not. It was a necessity either way, a cheap one at that - you can't make any logical conclusions based on it.

    Nothing uncovered, it's been working as advertised for me and many others. That's all that matters to me. Not google searches or ZR1 owners. It's a myth to me.

    Good luck to you, sir.

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