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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Originally Posted by Faded Crest I have a spare brand new Delco water pump for a 4.9, but after reading ...
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Faded Crest View Post
    I have a spare brand new Delco water pump for a 4.9, but after reading this, maybe I should throw it in the trash.
    Faded Crest: Approx. how old is that Delco Pump you have????

    Is it the more expensive Delco 251-595 / gm#12369484 which is stamped "MADE IN CANADA"?
    Delco also makes the cheaper "Wong Tong" pump # 252-720{#88926234}.

    Any identifying marks on it.............please let us know........very curious?

    If your's is older that 10yrs old, it may be a better quality pump all around.

    I wish I could find a NOS 4.9 pump in a GM O.E. Orig. Equip. Box. What happened to NOS parts for Cads. of this era????..........all the classic car guys can still get NOS parts. I guess they made so much volume back then and considering the numbers of those classic cars made and still on the road and there seems to still be NOS part available. All were left with is Delco which I've had other Delco parts fail quickly too.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Replacement generic aftermarket pump on my '90 is 5 years old. Purchased at Advance Auto. No problem to date.

    Replaced the pump on my '95 in '04 or so with a Delco pump. Bearing failed 2-3 years later. Replaced with generic aftermarket - I sold it 5 years later with that same pump.

    Interesting discussion, but just don't confuse gasket leaks with pump failures. These stamped steel pumps are finicky about proper install, and I've seen a number of botched jobs (loads of gooped RTV, stripped 10mm bolts, overall improper torque).

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Looks like my idea for using a Stewart Electric In-Line Performance Pump won't work. There is just no room anywhere since its required to be mounted close to the rad and low to be gravity fed. I've attached a C.A.D. Drawing in case it could help others with different cad. models other than my 91 Eldo. who may want to do the mod. This would definitely work with the Fiero guys retrofitting our 4.9's into their cars. If I got it to fit, I'd still do a test and run the old pump w/o the thermostat and dumping the water in a 5gal bucket, take a reading of how much water the original pumped moves, then do the same with the electric pump with the original pump's impeller still installed to make sure it meets or exceeds the same volume. If not, the pump comes off and the impeller gets cut off for better flow with an electric pump.

    The Electric Pump is 6 1/4" L x 4.5" W at the body and 6 1/4 total width with the top mounted electronic module. This pump is also $400 but I'd buy it if I could make it fit! They make an improved all composite pump with the same dimensions.
    http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Mer...Code=ElectPump

    Very little room down by the lower rad and rad. oil cooler lines would need converted to braided stainless and re-routed w/ 90deg fittings on the rad. ports. Maybe I'll see if the rad/condensor can be moved forward but I doubt it. No room under the battery because of the cruise control vacuum canister which I may take a closer look at and get rid of it, but having to cut 2 large holes in the wheel well, I may run into the subframe/uni-body.

    I thought about even mounting this Elect. Pump in front of the rad/condensor but no room to bring the hoses back around.......I'll have to look again. Mounting it on the drivers side of the engine compartment doesn't look good either because of the rad. fan shroud and the close proximity of the exhaust manifold and pipes but those could be wrapped with header wrap as would the rad. hoses. I always wanted a new performance smaller rad. fan anyway.........nothing is going to be easy and my clock is ticking as this pump is getting loud with every mile.

    I did at least confirm through "4 Seasons" who is a major A/C Compressor Mfg. and there engineers said the HR6 compressor could very well be run with only 25% belt wrap like other cars that use the HR6 compressor and our Cads really have over-kill with 75% belt wrap around the A/C Pulley. So by-passing the waterpump pulley with a shorter belt re-routed from the crank pulley to the A/C pulley should would work without the belt slipping when the A/C engages........

    Meizere ,another performance pump mfg., makes many different types of Elect. Pumps. Remote pumps and even rad. mounted pumps but you need aluminum tanks to weld on the fitting. This would probably be the best solution with the confined space but a custom rad and this thing would run well over $1000 but it beats changing pumps every 5000ml and yearly!

    I wish I could really get into this deeply, but I'm down to my last working car with a ton of back problems to keep screwing around.
    http://www.meziere.com/displaycategory.aspx?id=244,381 Rad. Mounted Electric Pump
    Styles:
    http://www.meziere.com/ps-790-0-WP116R.aspx Remote Elect. Pump1
    http://www.meziere.com/ps-892-0-WP136S.aspx Remote Elect. Pump2
    http://www.meziere.com/ps-1132-0-WP316R.aspx Remote Elect. Pump3
    http://www.meziere.com/ps-1148-0-WP336S.aspx Remote Elect. Pump4
    http://www.meziere.com/ps-1150-0-WP337S.aspx Remote Elect. Pump5
    http://www.meziere.com/ps-1178-0-WP365C.aspx Remote Elect. Pump6

    I'm still going to set up some tests with an electronic-digital torque meter comparing the measured tension of Delco Tensioners, old OEM styles from the junkyard, and the current Gates tensioners to see if the problems are bad specs in the tensioner-aftermarket and something got lost in re-engineering of these tensioners and they are applying too much tension to the Accessory Drive Belt System causing bearing failures of these pumps.

    What an ordeal...............

    Hope these ideas are informative.............sooner or later, we're all going to be replacing pumps every year which is why I started the "long winded thread" to document what after-market pumps are failing, if they still have the original tensioner or an after-market tensioner, and who still has the original OEM pumps/miles on it and if they have an original long style tensioner, or after-market tensioner.

    I hope everyone gets where I'm going with this mystery.............or shall I say "misery"!
    Attached Files

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    Replacement generic aftermarket pump on my '90 is 5 years old. Purchased at Advance Auto. No problem to date.

    Replaced the pump on my '95 in '04 or so with a Delco pump. Bearing failed 2-3 years later. Replaced with generic aftermarket - I sold it 5 years later with that same pump.

    Interesting discussion, but just don't confuse gasket leaks with pump failures. These stamped steel pumps are finicky about proper install, and I've seen a number of botched jobs (loads of gooped RTV, stripped 10mm bolts, overall improper torque).
    Do you still have the original old "Long Style Tensioner" or the shorter redesigned aftermarket tensioner?

    I agree, a gasket leak is different from a contaminated pump seal and weeping a ton of coolant out the weep holes. The weep holes are there to normally drain some coolant and expanding air from seal expansion when hot. If the weep holes were not there, then expanding air pressure with small amounts of coolant would push past the seal.

    I also agree with you about the installation......... Only use the better Felpro gaskets, and use the Permatex Gasket Spray Adhesive #80065, 80064, or 80697 on both sides of the gasket surface. No leaks for me, but a pain to clean. Permatex discontinued their old gasket remover #80646 due to the EPA and its really hard to find now but I bought 2 cans last year at Advance that were still on the shelf and were not pulled. That old product litterally melted the old gasket off and burned like hell too if you got it on you......and it reminded me of paint stripper from the burn and ammonia odor. It also stated to not get it on paint. I really think that paint stripper in an aerosol can, found at the hardware store or Home Depot, is the same formula which I'll have to use. I may compare some MSDS 's as compared to the old Permatex product. I heard their new Gasket Remover is not good at all.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Both are original tensioners.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    Both are original tensioners.

    "AHHH HAAA!.........Now we are getting some where"......someone or something is meu'dering these pi'mps and I the original Inspector Clouseau are going to get to the bottom of it you foo's!
    http://www.trussel.com/detfic/murdera.gif

    I'm really thinking the after-market tensioners are made with too much tension and "Meur'dering" these pumps! Just a theory.........
    Attached Images

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Do you remember which generic pump you purchased at Advanced Auto? Next time your there, can you ask them to pull up your profile to see the part# or the make? Now that I think of it, I guess the tensioner on your 95 was not bad. Did you buy the cheap $60 Delco Pump or the more expensive $150 pump that is stamped "MADE IN CANADA"?
    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    Replacement generic aftermarket pump on my '90 is 5 years old. Purchased at Advance Auto. No problem to date.

    Replaced the pump on my '95 in '04 or so with a Delco pump. Bearing failed 2-3 years later. Replaced with generic aftermarket - I sold it 5 years later with that same pump.

    Interesting discussion, but just don't confuse gasket leaks with pump failures. These stamped steel pumps are finicky about proper install, and I've seen a number of botched jobs (loads of gooped RTV, stripped 10mm bolts, overall improper torque).

  8. #53
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post
    I wish I could find a NOS 4.9 pump in a GM O.E. Orig. Equip. Box. What happened to NOS parts for Cads. of this era????..........all the classic car guys can still get NOS parts. I guess they made so much volume back then and considering the numbers of those classic cars made and still on the road and there seems to still be NOS part available. All were left with is Delco which I've had other Delco parts fail quickly too.
    I'm not surprised at all that there are no NOS service parts for those cars... They used the 4.9 for 5 years and there are still zillions of them on the road. All the old stock most likely got used up which is what necessitates cheapy Chinese parts.

    BTW, I got this pump by accident from Rock Auto only recently. They sent me 2 water pumps when I actually ordered one water pump and one steering pump. I sold the car anyway, so I got an extra part.

    Glad to know they might be problematic. I still have a 4.9 car and so does my Dad. If/When one of those pumps go bad, I'll use this one and report back if there is trouble.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Just curious....what does your "freebie" Delco pump say on the box or is it stamped "MADE IN CANADA" on the opposite side of the pumps body opposite of the impeller.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faded Crest View Post
    I'm not surprised at all that there are no NOS service parts for those cars... They used the 4.9 for 5 years and there are still zillions of them on the road. All the old stock most likely got used up which is what necessitates cheapy Chinese parts.

    BTW, I got this pump by accident from Rock Auto only recently. They sent me 2 water pumps when I actually ordered one water pump and one steering pump. I sold the car anyway, so I got an extra part.

    Glad to know they might be problematic. I still have a 4.9 car and so does my Dad. If/When one of those pumps go bad, I'll use this one and report back if there is trouble.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post
    Do you remember which generic pump you purchased at Advanced Auto? Next time your there, can you ask them to pull up your profile to see the part# or the make? Now that I think of it, I guess the tensioner on your 95 was not bad. Did you buy the cheap $60 Delco Pump or the more expensive $150 pump that is stamped "MADE IN CANADA"?
    I have all of the receipts to these parts - it's a matter of finding them. I believe the Delco pump was the cheaper one. Both of the Advance Auto pumps were the cheapest they had.

    These are only examples on MY personal cars, but I've installed pumps on others. I've come to the conclusion that, in the case of these water pumps AND other belt driven accessories including AC compressors and alternators, Delco is NOT the way to go. Far more frequent bearing failures on them (new tensioner or not). I've had far more postive results using the cheap aftermarkets

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Wow........that's a little odd. I'm still wondering about the wrong specs from OEM on the after-market tensioners, or just crummy bearings that everyone is using.

    I even thought maybe some idiot company in China has specified the wrong type of bearing pump seals and is selling these to the pump mfgs in China and they are possibly not resistant against nor compatible with either High or Low Silicate "Green" Ethylene Glycol like the original OEM Pump seals were and now the seals are swelling allowing coolant to contaminate the bearing. I'm seeing a shift to the "Universal" type of coolants at the parts stores that are labeled as "universal or Phosphate/Silicate free". They have done this so the retailers don't have to take up space on the shelf and limit the selection of coolants.

    So there's the: new "Universal Silicate/Phosphorus free" coolant, OAT, Hybrid-OAT, and traditional Green Ethylene Glycol.

    There's also a very expensive coolant from Evans Cooling which is Non-Aqueous (water-less) Propylene Glycol "NPG" and has the highest heat transfer rate of all coolants and even beyond straight water. It's best used on turbo's or supercharged motors to help cool and surpress detonation but can still give huge benefits on all motors when advancing timing since it cools so well and helps avoid detonation..... This coolant allows you to run a lot of advanced timing without detonation and its been proven. I read many articles about that stuff but its like $40 a gallon. This stuff is way beyond Water Wetter or Royal Purple-Purple Ice or other coolant additives.

    This is a whole other discussion but everyone should check out Evans NPG+ which is a straight coolant and you don't even have to run a pressurized cap or only a 1-5lb cap for minimum system pressure when using that coolant because of the advanced technology which means all cooling system components (rads./hoses) last much longer. I was going to use it but wanted to be sure I had a good pump first.....maybe that's what I'll have to use immediately on the next pump I get to see if it makes a difference, but I want to figure out how to get an electric pump on this car and then do the Evans coolant conversion.

    I had so many performance mods. and enhancements for our 4.9's to do, test, and post on the forum, but I just can't seem to get this car straightened out first. I wanted to do a new section or Threads on this forum of these different performance mods. The Evan's Coolant conversion was just one of those performance mods I wanted to do and see how much timing the 4.9's could take without detonation!

    Here's how it works: http://www.evanscooling.com/how-it-w...fferentiators/

    I WILL HAVE TO ATTACH THE ARTICLE HERE IN 3 DIFFERENT POSTS BECAUSE ITS TOO LARGE..........

    Check out the attached article. 75 HP from changing the coolant! This was one of my performance ideas I was going to test out for our 4.9's and see how high I could safely raise the timing and setting up a Knock Sensor Meter when using this stuff since their is really no performance parts for the 4.9's but I had many ideas to apply to these motors to increase performance without tearing the motor apart..............

    drewsdeville: Do you remember what type of coolant you used in your systems with the pumps that lasted or failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    I have all of the receipts to these parts - it's a matter of finding them. I believe the Delco pump was the cheaper one. Both of the Advance Auto pumps were the cheapest they had.

    These are only examples on MY personal cars, but I've installed pumps on others. I've come to the conclusion that, in the case of these water pumps AND other belt driven accessories including AC compressors and alternators, Delco is NOT the way to go. Far more frequent bearing failures on them (new tensioner or not). I've had far more postive results using the cheap aftermarkets

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Box says 252-720. Same one I installed in my '95 Deville before I sold it. The old one had a bad bearing and the replacement took care of the problem.

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    See attachment of Evan's Coolant article in 3 parts below.

    I'm wondering if this coolant would not attack the seals of these pumps if it's indeed a seal and EG Coolant incompatibility problem.
    Attached Files

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Here's Part 2 of the Evan's High Performance Coolant Article........See part 3 next.
    Attached Files

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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Here's Part 3 of the article on Evan's High Performance Coolant.......... Once again, sorry to divide it up. This site would not let me post a large PDF Scan.........what a P.I.T.A.

    Someone please let me know if these PDF's of the Popular Hot Rodding article could be opened and read. It should be pgs. 80-83


    Finally, anyone want to try this special coolant and go for 20 degrees BTDC base timing!

    Attached Files

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