Cadillac Owners Forum banner

Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

20K views 80 replies 11 participants last post by  eldo92 
#1 · (Edited)
Well, lately every Delco part I've bought either through the dealer or authorized Delco Distributor has gone bad within a few months. A Delco EVAP, a Delco Powersteering Pump that whinned immediatly, and now my Delco Water Pump has a very subtle droaning noise to it. Only 1.5 yrs old with 10k miles on that pump

I noticed a slight change in the engine sound/harmonics the other day(something no-one else could pickup) so I checked all accessories with a mechanics stethoscope and the water pump/bolts definitely are transmitting some harmonic noise. Not so much the pump housing because its probably isolated by the internal pump seal or somethng, and the block is silent where the bolts attach.

Someone once told me to see if the GM parts were still available when replacing any part as they are better than Delco like when my P.S. Pump failed. I think Delco P.S. Pumps are remaned anyway from Delco.

I'll have to check to see if they still make GM replacement pumps.

Does anyone remember seeing a post/thread about a guy who was discussing a different brand of a better quality water pump for a 4.9?

I thought it was here or maybe on the Fiero Forums. Can't remember but I think it was someone doing a 4.9 buidup and he named a water pump in his build/mod list and I had the the feeling that he was making a point that this other pump was better for some reason or rational.........................

So to add insult to injury, when the injectors were replaced, I decided to get a new Delco P.S. Pump to replace the original pump, and while everything was appart, why not replace the original GM Waterpump Too as the car has 89k ml.!

I also purchased a new Gates tensioner at that time but I didn't like the looks of it so it never was installed, but the original tensioner spring sprung this summer so the Gates went on after I called to inquier about the narrower body. Gate's confirmed that the tensioner has a better designed tension spring which is why its narrower. I'm now wondering if the original tensioner cause any stress on this pump which I also put on a new pump pulley due to an old issue.

I hate going by the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but it was the logical thing to do............

Anyone else having problems with AC Delco Water Pumps?

Thanks,

chris
 
See less See more
#66 ·
I remember reading this thread around the time I signed up here. I don't think I have ever in my life heard of water pump failure on the same engine so many times. Thousands of them on the road out there yet, and will be in the future. I would say the the success rate would be far greater than the Cadillac N* regarding water pumps. I even know of a lot of different Toyatas that have water pump failure in excess far worse the the 4.x engines, and some people think they are just the real shit, but we won't go there.

The Dexcool thing, I took care of a mixed fleet of trucks, and we ran it in all of the GM trucks without a single problem. All of the Fords we ran what they had in them from the factory and same with the Dodges. I only had problems with one Ford every 100k, and it was a problem from day one with the water pump eating up impellors, never leaked. Ok I know I got off the subject of the 4.9 water pump and coolant brand, but I seriously doubt any of the aftermarket pumps are totally to blame here. Usually if there is a consistant problem it is being caused from something else, and you may never find that problem.
 
#67 ·
...Ok I know I got off the subject of the 4.9 water pump and coolant brand, but I seriously doubt any of the aftermarket pumps are totally to blame here. Usually if there is a consistent problem it is being caused from something else, and you may never find that problem.
+1 in sentiment....
Ever thought maybe your timing cover may be warped/machined wrong? Something external has to be affecting your pumps....
 
#70 · (Edited)
Thanks for the suggestions. I know a lot gets lost in translation of my long winded, hopefully informative prior posts, but the drivebelt system appears to be o.k., although I will take these suggestions under carefull consideration. In the past, I began to explore the same when researching some very unique testing devices that I'll post up as I'm waiting for reply's to my inquiries.........I also had 2 new Gates Tensioners installed, the 2nd was a freebie from Gates and they tested my first tensioner which was allegedly confirmed to be fine but will not discourage me from my own remedial test if I can locate a test instrument to satisfy my curiosity.

I have some very interesting info to post since June 10th as a follow up and a ironic development of the DexCool Debate!

Very busy over the past few days with "Legal Stuff".........:annoyed:.

I leave you with some points to ponder and I know this in not a "Legal Forum" and realize that many did not recognize the significance in the DexCool Settlement.
$16.5 million in legal fees to recover $140,000 in damages divided by 80 Class Members at $1750 per member??????????!!!!!!!!!!!
:wtf2:

Does this look odd to anyone? I know many here probably don't have any legal experiance and by the grace of god, I hope you are all spared from the legal system.

This was a "Settlement" in order to NOT go to court for trial. These fees were not awarded in a trial by jury or judge as those fees would be deemed excessive and abuse of the legal system! However anything is fair game when you settle out of court even if the judge stamps it!

In short, $16.5 million in legal fees is considered a bit excessive and is basically a "Legal Shake Down or Legalized Extortion"........they proved their case and GM gave the Attorney's representing the Class "Hush Money" to drop the case to have it "Dismissed with Prejudice.".................$16.5 MILLION.......when the DexCool case was settled every attourney from here to Albuquerque and back must've been foaming at the mouth! The legal fees were in reality under $1 million and would've been more appropriate in proportion to expert witness fees/forensic testing ect. and in damages being sought.

I started to write a legal brief on the 10th to post but stopped myself ....wrong type of forum.......I figured that maybe I shouldn't bore you guys with legal case theory, but you'd be surprised what I found out and stumbled upon which is not unusual with my investigations.............I found the foremost FORENSIC TESTING LAB IN THE COUNTRY FOR THE DEXCOOL CASE!........and no........they're not talking being bound by the terms of their agreement, out of court settlement, attorney client privilege and client confidentiality, but I may post them up here depending on future discussions, as I may submit some of my coolant to be analysed to see what maybe going on with it ! I'm glad I didn't use DexCool or they would probably have to recluse themselves from testing it.

Anyway, "The PROOF of DexCool" was buried and filed next to the "Roswell File" and we'll never know the truth until, or if the DexCool Scandal resurfaces in the legal world some day.
:shtf:
Save your receipts if you use DexCool just in case but I believe that all producers have secretly ironed out the problems by a change in formulation of each brand of DexCool........
I"ll see if the "back channels" are still open and what I can find out.
 
#71 ·
Anyway, "The PROOF of DexCool" was buried and filed next to the "Roswell File" and we'll never know the truth until, or if the DexCool Scandal resurfaces in the legal world some day.
:thumbsup:

Exactly why I call it a myth. As far as we know, nothing has been proven in court. On top of that, I have not experienced related problems in over 10 years of it's use - I've been provided no valid facts that support the suggestion that I'm playing "coolant russian roulette". Evidently, I've had longer pump life than you, on the cheapest aftermarket pumps, WITH DEXCOOL! According to Google, I'm currently accomplishing the impossible! :p

I must be doing something right, or I'm very lucky. In either case, I see no reason to change what I've been doing. Works for me.

Good luck to you in your quest, good sir.
 
#72 · (Edited)
No not a myth, but a legal settlement...OMG why do you think that GM just handed over $16.5 million????...

In the legal system, that's why most cases never go to trial. "I got you by the Conjones pay up or else!" Its a shakedown! They proved their case w/o going to court! We are just not privy to the evidence they uncovered......or where this could've gone. Trust me, I have ton's of experience with the legal system both State and Federal, and lawyers are all scumbags who all will sell out their clients and work both sides to maximize their gains in a case and will sell out their mothers, grandma's and the Pope if they had to...........this is why I now litigate my cases from my extensive legal background.

Any Class Action Lawyers use their clients as a mechanism to make huge amounts of undeserved fees which skirts the edges of the R.I.C.O Act........

Or the Plaintiff's investigators had video of one of the GM Execs with a Colombian Hooker doing Coke......ever hear about John Delorean? An x-friend of the family was his "personal assistant" for many years and she has his 64' 427 Vette in her procession where I've tried to investigate if its been deemed stolen somewhere along the lines..........glad I cut her off because I would've been working on it and I see it parked in a Condo parking garage all the time!

Do you get what I'm talking about? $16.5 large one's were paid not to take this DexCool Case to trial which would've uncovered something that would've led to claims potentially in the hundreds of millions but the Class Action Lawyers would've been in for the long haul litigating of 10yrs+ before getting into court and going to trial. They get the proof, slam it down on the table during court ordered mediation, and give the other side an ultimatum....... the other side knows they also want out to get their money asap to move on to the next case so GM had a little leverage and probably "offered" $10 million to shut up and go away quietly and they said you can afford $16.5 + damages + our legal costs! Oh god........I need to move this whole thing over to one of the legal boards.............who will all unanimously agree they had the proof because if they didn't or it was a bluff, GM would've counter-sued for a $100 million!

Your's and other's successes with DexCool has so many variables even before considering your luck. From what I think, DexCool has had many different versions of additive packages in the aftermarket so that's a huge variable to many's success and those who like myself who black-list the name stemming from this litigation is only a fear of the unknown which is logical. My new fear of the unknown is not to change an OEM GM Part unless its bad just like my original pump was good and I stupidly elected to replace it as preventative maintenance when everything was apart which has led to this whole fiasco.

It would be my educated guess that the aftermarket producers of DexCool would re-formulate the additive package after secretly learning of DexCools "original formulation" problems" which makes a lot of sense, because they'd be in the same boat as GM was in the past. The Class Action Lawyers are still sitting on their evidence and knowledge and the aftermarket knew not to screw around even if they said they changed the additive package as to no infringe on the original patent........

I will admit its a complex matter beyond many including myself, but from the legal point of view, I recognize what occured in the litigation and my recent introduction to the Forensic Lab's restraint on talking about DexCool who did the testing in the case is sufficient testimony that there's some major issue.

Finally, the name "DexCool" will continue to carry a bad reputation.........I even read the ZR1 guys have been having problems lately with head gaskets swelling on DexCool either OE Dex or Aftermarket which maybe revealing itself later since those cars aren't daily drivers.

Finally, I think I just discovered that my Delco Pump was run on Green Silicated Ethylene Glycol and the 2nd Cardone pump was run on the new "Universal Silicate/Phosphate Free" coolant which is why I want to have it tested just to know let alone see if anything shows up.

Spoke to Dayco today, and Gates a few times including some other's in the industry and they firmly believe its a simple inferior bearing design that's out in the market over the past years. There have been quite a few others on this forum and other forums with the same experience as me so there is a problem with these pumps as seen in my posts 40 and 44......and I made the joke about a Class Action over these pumps. Round up 80 people, file in Federal Court get everyone's old pumps examined by a lab and I'd distribute the extortion fees to the members of the class!
 
#74 ·
Do you get what I'm talking about? $16.5 was paid not to take this DexCool Case to trial which would've uncovered something that would've led to claims potentially in the hundreds of millions but the Class Action Lawyers would've been in for the long haul litigating of 10yrs+ before getting into court and going to trial.
I do get it. I understand that nothing was uncovered. I've posted this 3 times now. I also understand that the paid 16.5 mil was advantageous to GM whether there was something to be uncovered or not. It was a necessity either way, a cheap one at that - you can't make any logical conclusions based on it.

Nothing uncovered, it's been working as advertised for me and many others. That's all that matters to me. Not google searches or ZR1 owners. It's a myth to me.

Good luck to you, sir.
 
#78 ·
Well.......I put this thing to bed for a while.

I tried to go 3-4 sizes bigger on the belt to lessen the tension on the drive belt system in order to buy more time, but it finally started to leak coolant out the weep hole, and the main bearing got extremely noisy.

I missed out on that discontinued Craftsman Digital Torque Meter on E-bay to do some torque comparisons of the Gates Tensioner vs. an old style GM Tensioner so I could post some pics if there was a big difference but I wanted to see if there is much of a difference in tensioner specs just for the h'll of it. Hopefully I can find that meter on e-bay again.

I asked someone a few weeks ago who's a vendor at the APPEX Show in Vegas, to stop by the AC Delco booth to see if they could get some contact info or a backdoor into Delco Engineering so I can find out what they know about pump failures and inferior bearings/seals they are sourcing which I believe everyone in the aftermarket is also sourcing from the same place in Asia on all these pumps.........just a feeling I have.

This summer, I researched the 6 superseded OEM part numbers and started to track down original Cadillac GM boxed OEM pumps and the early Delco replacements date stamped from the early 90's and on. I'll post that info some day but I have many more calls to make of who has these old better made pumps.

I'm still hoping other 4.9/4.5 owners can give some feedback of either good or bad pump experiences with Delco or other mfgs in the aftermarket and what years they were installed so a better picture can be made of good or defective pumps from year to year.

I believe that somewhere around the early 90's the better made GM boxed pumps were discontinued then Delco picked the up the line and were also high quality since they would've been made to replace failures under factory warranty. My feeling is that the Delco pumps date stamped from the mid-90's to early 2000's were the better made pumps. I even spoke to an old AirTex tech who confirmed my belief of one pump I ran across this summer that had the letter "A" in a "circle" stamped on the cover which was much different from other Delco Pumps. He said AirTex was actually making the pumps here in the U.S. with U.S. components for GM and Delco, "back in the day" and were stamped with the letter "A" in a "circle" on the front of the pump. But this dealer also sent me a photo and I could tell someone sandblasted and re-painted it so I fwd the photo to this AirTex Rep. and he said the same, so something was up with that old pump and it was probably a return or the dealer did it to re-sell for some reason!

I did find some orig. boxed GM Cad. pumps but they were also over $350!

I'm still considering the electric water pump retrofit from that Australian Company Davis Craig but I'll still have to puton another new replacement pump and cut the impeller off for better flow with the electric pump and re-rout the beltdrive with a smaller belt. The fitment down by the lower hose is going to be very tight and they said the pump can be put in the upper hose, but if there is a coolant loss, it will no longer pump. They also sell a low coolant alarm and I also researched other company's who make these devices which I would need if the pump was put in the upper hose.

I now know that I'll have to also do the front cover gasket and I'll need a new lower water housing inlet due to rust and I may as well do the timing chain too.

I again warn anyone looking to replace a good working OEM pump for preventative maintanacne NOT TO DO IT. If you have an orig. pump, it's much better than the new pumps made today that seem to fail every year or so........!


..........stupid a.ss water pump failure project!

Regards,
Chris
 
#80 · (Edited)
I have an external rust problem living in Fl. by the beach......

I've cleaned my cooling system out well with the old GM Flush Procedure using the long discontinued
Prestone AS-100 2 part Oxalic Acid w/ Sodium Carbonate neutralizer. There is a whole TSB flushing procedure on it. It's still available at some GM dealerships, under GM part#12346500.

I was going to do a write up on it here some day of this old lost procedure so others can decide on using this procedure or the junk they now sell at the parts store that doesn't work, but I figure it would cause a whole "flushing procedure controversy"!:bonkers:

Anyone interested should Google: "Prestone AS-100 or AS100 or GM TSB part#12346500" to learn more. Or just buy "Wood Bleach" from ACE Hardware and Arm & Hammer Washing Soda in the yellow box from the grocery store.......all the same stuff and concentrate since I discussed the old Prestone MSDS with the mfgs chemist of the ACE Woodbleech at "Savogran Chemical.
Here's the stuff here: http://www.savogran.com/Information/Wood_Bleach_PD.pdf


Here's a detailed link from the Vette Forum with the GM TSB Procedure which is also all over the web in other forums.........this is the only way to really flush out a system to get it so clean it will maybe leak, but hey....that's what the GM/Bars leak Tabs are for including the other multi-step sealers + I always do oil analysis to monitor engine coolant in the oil :
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-tech-performance/2797051-dex-cool-sludge.html

or here:

http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic...start=15&sid=534c3cec791d17182b1a1837377e3660

I've also put some woman's nylons in the upper hose to trap any scale/rust in the system and was even considering installing a coolant filter like the diesels have just to be sure.......and to rule out an internal coolant chemistry problem, I'm also going to send the coolant out to be analysed to see if there is indeed an issue that could cause the pumps to fail but I know it's just crumby Asian made pumps/seals/bearings.

I'm also looking into putting some Zinc and Magnesium sacrificial anodes in just for the he'll of it....cheap insurance.
 
#81 ·
You can't go wrong with Carquest OE replacement water pumps. Parent company is Japanese, with subsidiary companies in US. Pump is manufactured in either Canada, Mexico, or US. Replaced mine on the 4.9 92 Eldo one year ago, no leaks, and no issues.

Also, can't recommend Gates Drive Align premium belt tensioner assembly strong enough. I noticed the size and shape difference from the OEM assembly and paused before committing to it, and have no regrets, as well as the Gates Serpentine belt as a much better assembly than what GM used at the factory.

Tensioner assembly: Part Number: 38184
Water Pump: Part Number : 51-1765
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top