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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; I guess I was thinking of this thread but I still think someone put an electric inline waterpump on a ...
  1. #16
    cadchris's Avatar
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    I guess I was thinking of this thread but I still think someone put an electric inline waterpump on a 4.9 and bypassed the org. pump. I wonder if the orig. pump can stay in place, remove the impeller, and bypass the pulley with a different belt route and use an inline electric pump? Problem solved??????

    This link has tons of good info and has links to some older high perf. builds incuding the Alternator Relocation but still used the orig. pump configuration:
    http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482,page=7

    Somewhere I've seen photos of a "jewl" of a 4.9 engine that was chromed out with red accents and the photo was taken when on a motor stand. It was a real work of art! It was red with all aluminum smoothed an polished including the mageasum valve covers with red paint accents. I'm thinking that motor was the one that maybe had some waterpump modification and the one I was thinking of. Anyone know which site that motor is on?

    I thought it was this site but it wasn't: http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49a.html

    chris

  2. #17
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    HUF
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post
    HUF, which Delco part# do you have? Also, are there any other part#'s, production #'s or any other codes ect. on the box or stamped on the pump? Is there any indication on the box or pump of where the pump is made?

    How much do you want for the pump? P.M. me if you want?

    Also, what waranty are you giving on this pump?!!!!!!!
    Chris
    No warranty, I guess. ACD# 252-720 GM#88926234 "Made in USA from components mfg in China". The extra Fel-Pro gasket is made in USA,

  3. #18
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Thanks HUF, Very strange as I would've thought it was a Chineese assembled pump with parts from China too. I have to find out what the expensive pump says on it and where its made for the hell of it.

    Maybe, "Made in USA by the Night Shift!

    I'd love to bypass that pump somehow and not have to worry about what quality I'm getting or where it's made.

    chris

  4. #19
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    This is the motor I was talking about. It is the 3rd and 4th photo in this thread below and is a 4.5 Allante motor. Not sure if anyone has seen this motor on another site but I have an e-mail into the Fiero Expert over at Fiero Addiction who can probably give me good advise on the waterpump issues ect.
    http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482

    chris

    UPDATE: My computer wasn't displaying all of the photos on that site above yesterday. That site was infact the site I had seen the photo of that motor which is a actually a 4.9 with an Allante Intake/Injection and the guy mentioned a the future use of an electric pump but he showed a pic. of a HEMI Mezeier Pump:

    See Photo 3-4 here: http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482

    and the same thread pg. 5 for another pic of the 4.9 with Allante Intake:
    http://forum.britishv8.org/read.php?6,13482,page=5

    Lots of good performance mods on that thread like custom fabricated headers, double roller timing chain set, Perf. Delt Cams, and smaller gear reduction/ more powerful starter mod. ect.

    The Electric Remote Waterpump still seems like a good idea but would take some messing around to either:
    #1. remove the impeller and run the belt on the pulley like an idler pulley, or.....

    #2. remove the pulley and cut off the pulley mount and come up with a new belt drive route, since the 1st way the belt would still be tensioning and turning the pulley of a new replacement pump and the risk of bearing/seal failure could still happen even w/o the impeller.

    I wonder if removing the impeller; coolant would flow corectly through the pump houseing with a remote inline electric pump?

    It would still be great to turn a known good pump into just a belt idler and again remove the internal impeller. I wonder what the Horsepower Gain would be if eliminating the impeller or pump pulley?

    Last post of the YEAR 2010!!!!!!!!!

  5. #20
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Yep, had to make that post above before 2011!

    Forgot to add this link below which is my idea to duplicate of how Mezeire makes an idler in place of a waterpump for the Honda's but I think one would have to use an orig. 4.9 pump with better seals/bearings instead of taking a chance on a replacement pump and use it w/o the impeller: http://www.meziere.com/ps-1333-1269-wpk50026.aspx

    I'll have to run my ideas by the British V8 Forum and Fiero Forums who swap and modify the Cadillac 4.9's and post my findings back here?

    I also got an e-mail from "Allante Source" and he had problems with the cheaper Delco pump that failed in less than 20k miles and his orig. was still good but decided to replace it when doing a Timing Cover Gasket. He also had one replaced by the dealer under extended warranty back in 1999 and now has 130k on that pump w/o a problem

    So "the recluse" made a very valid comment above when he stated:
    "It has long been argued by me, though not here, that parts and the companies that manufacture them, for the most part, fail to engineer a quality product for any cars over 10 years old."

    Hopefully others again will share their experiences with their replacement pumps good or bad!


    Also came accross this TSB by Airtex/ASC that may help anyone reading this thread:
    http://asc-ind.com/wp-content/upload...stallation.pdf
    http://asc-ind.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wp627.pdf

    Talked to Permatex for when my bad Delco pump gets replaced, and they recomended using their Hylomar #85249 on both sides of the gasket or a better product w/o using a gasket, (metal to metal) use #22071 which may help if their is dimpleing in the timing cover as described in the TSB's above.
    http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...ge_Sealant.htm

    http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...one_Gasket.htm

    In the past, I've always used their Indian Shelac or:
    http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...et_Sealant.htm

    Which is going to be really hard to remove. Hopefully their gasket remover will work or can recommend some other solevant.

    Happy New Year,

    chris

  6. #21
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    UPDATE:

    Well, just thought I'd drop in and give an update on which pump I went with.

    After thorougly researching aftermarket water pumps for the 4.9 above,,,,,............and if you got this far reading through my long posts above,.............. I decided to go with an A1 Cardone Pump "Select Series" #55-16111 that I got from Rockauto.com

    After speaking and e-mailing Cardone Technical Services, they gave me a Tech. Bullitin about the troublesome 4.9 pumps from the O.E. aftermarket a.k.a "AC Delco" and other aftermarket pumps in which they redesigned both their Reman. Pump bearing in pump #58329 and eventually upgraded their "Select" Pump line bearing for the #5516111 pumps.

    See Link:
    http://www.cardone.com/English/Club/...%2058-0008.pdf


    I was confused and e-mailed Cardone a few times on which pump had the newer bearing design and this is what I was told by Cardone Tech Service:

    "The Select Pump has the redesigned bearing which is one-piece, double-row bearing. All the Select units have this bearing. "

    Raymond L. Fitzgerald, Jr.
    Senior Technical Service Representative
    ASE Certified Cardone

    "Good Morning Chris,

    The redesigned bearing on our reman pump was introduced some 10 years ago. This bearing included a ball and a roller bearing with a longer housing.
    Our Select - 55-16111 has the same length housing but a ball and ball bearings rather than ball/roller."

    Ray Will ASE Certified Cardone


    I just wish I had my original O.E. pump that I decided to replace as preventative maintance because I can only wonder how well of a design it actually was. If anyone can confirm they have an original pump and it has failed, it would be interesting to take it appart to see how the O.E. bearing is made. From what I researched, most of the replacement pump bearings can't take the torsional loads of the accessory drive and fail early like my expensive Canadian made Delco #251-595. I'm still tempted to take that pump appart but when I get around to it, I'm going to get in touch with my local Delco Rep to see if he'll give me a credit.


    Hope this helps someone to make a better Water Pump Choice for the 4.9's

  7. #22
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    I bought the $50 Delco pump for my 4.9 project. The belt rides off the back of the top of the pulley and rubs against the housing. We are pretty sure the root problem is that the pump housing is stamped wrong, resulting in the pulley axis riding at an angle. Poor stamping is typical of Chinese parts

    Let us know how the Cardone part works out. I want to try the NAPA brand myself (used them for my Jeep engine swap), but it will be a while.

  8. #23
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    i haven't sold one of these in a long long time (years?) but we never had any problems...
    always sold the expensive acdelco (oem) pump

    apparently times have changed...
    if i can remember (and get the free time) i'll check into this and see what i would recommend for a replacement pump
    Chris Heath (RippyPartsDept) is an ASE Certified GM Parts Consultant at
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    We offer all forum members deals on parts and freight - e: parts@rippyautomotive.com ph: 800-RIPPY-22
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  9. #24
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Never went as far to analyyze bearing types and stuff, but I replaced the original pump in my '95 with an AC Delco somewhere around 145k and lasted till I sold it.

    Replaced the pump on my '90 around 160k with a Cardone unit and am at 185k now. So far, so good.

    A relative has 195k on his ORIGINAL pump from '89, still going as a daily driver

    I myself never really noticed any quality issues with these pumps across brands. Typically the factory pumps fail around 100k-150k, which really isn't out of line. After that, replacements seem more frequent, but it sounds like it's more from poor workmanship than the pumps themselves as they are generally gasket failures.

  10. #25
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Ehall; From what I remember in my research, Napa Pumps for our 4.9's will be either Gates or Airtex/ASC and from what I could tell, there's no easy way to determine who's pump you will be getting.

    Here's a TSB on coolant leaks from Airtex/ASC I just came across just so people know when replacing the pump:
    http://airtexwaterpumps.com/wp-conte...tallation1.pdf

    I just checked the TSB from Cardone that I posted and it didn't work. Here is the Cardone TSB Main Page and scroll down to: 58-329 Cadillac Water Pump Bearing - PT 58-0008
    http://cardone.com/english/club/Prod...ech_Bulletins/

    Here's the direct link again on Cardones improved bearing design for their Reman. and Select Pumps: http://cardone.com/english/club/Prod...%2058-0008.pdf

  11. #26
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    I attached the file from Cardone because the hyper-link sometimes doesn't work when posting.

    http://cardone.com/english/club/Prod...%2058-0008.pdf
    Attached Files

  12. #27
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    This is interesting about the poor quality of AC Delco parts. I do a lot of auto repair on all makes and I have been running into problems with NAPA, and Autozone parts being defective right out of the box or shortly thereafter also. There was a time (in your grandfathers day) when you could diagnose and repair cars by replacing parts one at a time and feel secure that this part is new so we can eliminate that. But no more I guess, with the flight of manufacturing to communist China and the poor quality control and for that matter accountabilty with the distance and all. The only recourse we have is to learn how to check those parts right out of the box, before we install them but sometimes this is not possible as in this case of premature failure of AC Delco waterpumps. OEM parts are junk too!!!!

  13. #28
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    I've only had one fail because of the bearing. Lately it's because as I said in an earlier post the bigger metal part of it rusts out.

    Another junk delco part is the idle speed motor. That died on me again today.

  14. #29
    the recluse is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    Update of my own:

    Another water pump failed on my 4.9 after only approximately 10,000...bearing failure. Replaced it with a brand new Cardone part from Advanced Auto for around $55.00. Who knows as to longevity, but 10,000 miles sucks for a water pump...just saying.

    When removed, no problem with rust.

  15. #30
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    Re: Bad A/C Delco Waterpump. 91 Eldo 4.9 Anything better than AC Delco Waterpumps?

    We can add Napa Legend batteries to the list, just had one fail at less tha 9 months and I got it via a warranty battery that was 6 months old. I'm thinking of trying Optima next if I ever get these fuel injectors sorted out.

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