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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Originally Posted by ehall As to the original question you might be looking at intake gasket problems, it's pretty common ...
  1. #16
    the recluse is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    Quote Originally Posted by ehall View Post
    As to the original question you might be looking at intake gasket problems, it's pretty common with these engines
    Imagine that if it was, 10,000 miles and you've got to tear it down from NOT using it how ironic...

    Don't top it off, run it out if it's running good; after all you're only going 40 miles in a car that gets 20 mpg so you'll only burn up a coupla' gallons. Personally, I'd burn all the gas in the tank, fill it half way, and put some Stabil in it.

    Topping it off means it sits with a full tank that, by the time you burn that one, could be another two years

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    Would some fuel conditioner help preserve the fuel?.

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    cadillac_al is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    I know a few people that restore motorcycles and whenever somebody gets a good deal on a low mileage garage queen it takes a lot of work to get it road ready. There are plenty of 20-30 year old bikes out there in mint condition with 5-10k miles. Fluids and hoses are deteriorated and carbs are extra gummed up from never riding them. My bike gets 1000 miles per year and the carbs have never been apart in 28 years. I have several cars and some definitely don't get driven enough and it is much worse for them than if they were driven semi-regularly. 2 year old gas is a recipe for a seriously gummed up fuel system. Sandy, for your car's sake, you need to burn a couple tanks of fuel every year through that thing. Pass a few cars too and blow the carbon out of it. I'm afraid it may be getting too late, especially for the valve seals.

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Drewsdeville, it's not the mileage on her, it's the fact that there are no NOS parts for 1993s, ans especially for the 60 Special, of which were 1% of total 1993 Caddy production, and the last year for the Sixty Special. 1938-1993.
    This is North Jersey, home of the spoert of tailgating, and cutting off and especially speeding 40 MPH in 25MPH zones. Nearly every car older than 2 years old is damaged. To be 100% honest, I am scared to death to take her out. If they don't bump/hit her, when ya park, they will door ding you and if you park far away to prevent that, they will steal your wheel centers and / or your fender skirts, or yank off your hood emblem.

    A friend with a 1992 Eldo took it out to dinner with his Mom and they were inside eating for (he says) under 45 minutes. When they returned he had lost a hood emblem AND had a small verticle scratch on his driver door, from the car next to him. It was the 1st time the car had been out, since last October (2009). They all own/drive honda/toyo and they are leased and not theirs and are just "Transportation" and in 30 months they get a new one.....'Ya know, "it's JUST a car" ..... is their motto.....

    That is why I don't take her out. Ya know SOMETHING is gonna happen, you just do not know when, when driving or when parked.
    *As an aside, make note of the distinction I made while quoting you and be sure to recall it for future application... You're in North Jersey and most of you behave very, very differently up in your half

    First of all, untreated gasoline was never meant to sit for two years and then be used - it deteriorates, attracts condensation, and basically becomes useless, harmful junk. Even with stabilizer, you should let fuel sit for no longer than 8-10 months... Frankly, I wouldn't use any fuel that's been sitting for more than 4-6 months (depending on the season) regardless of whether it's been treated or not.

    But honestly Sandy... I can't even remotely wrap my brain around how you can supposedly care for the welfare of this car so much and then run it with two year old gas. If the fuel is that old, I'd hate to imagine how long some of the other fluids have been sitting in that car.

    "Mint" condition or not... That Cadillac was never designed to sit idle for as long as you've let it - you're doing just as much, if not more damage to it than you'd potentially do so by driving it. As it stands now, the situation is definitely ridiculous/borderline insane.

    The whole thing is just a shame... If for whatever reason you cannot force yourself to drive this car in any sort of regular, consistent - if periodic fashion... Then you seriously need to consider letting the car go to someone who will do so.

    However, if for some other reason you cannot bear the thought of letting it go then you ought to immediately drain all of it's fluids and simply find a permanent place for it to sit from here to eternity. Even though I find such a notion to be equally loathsome, you'll at least be doing less long term damage to it while still being able to stand and look at it, as that seems to be your primary concern for the vehicle.

    Either way, you need to make some serious, heartfelt decisions with regard to this car and you need to do so soon - those essentially being:

    A.) Drive it regularly to minimize risk of mechanical damage, even with the potential risk of cosmetic damage (although you can take steps to minimize that as well - such as, say... AVOIDING the GSP at all costs)

    B.) Never drive it again and take proper steps to permanently store it, so you can continue to "marvel" at it as long as you wish. Or

    C.) Just sell the car (and do so at a realistic price)...

    And at this point, I sincerely think option "C" is the best way to go for all parties involved.

    Bottom line Sandy, as hard of a pill as it may be to swallow.... Use it or lose it.

  5. #20
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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    Okay. Now answer my questions
    1. I am taking her out on Sunday...this Sunday (UNless it rains - which is NOT forcast.)
    The car had 1/2 a tank in it, of old gas. I took it out for a ride (about 5 miles) 3 weeks ago. At that time I filled it with Exxon Supreme Premium. Since then, I have gond over to where I store it, and have started her many many times, each time letting her idle - running - for 20 or more minutes. The fuel level is now down to 60 percent full. 30% is old & 30% is 3 weeks old.
    Do I:
    add no new gas
    add new gas, but do not fill
    or
    fill again with new gas.
    Under hood, there are no leaks, and no bad smells while running.
    When I drove her 3 weeks ago, she performed flawlessly, in all regards.

    Lastly why NO Garden State Parkway GSP ??
    Better in stop & go traffic ??? Thanks.

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    I'm not sure there's any right or wrong answer here, but personally, I'd run it till near empty and fill it so you have a full fresh tank. I really have no support as to why this is better, just my personal preference.

    Maybe you could argue that you are at least exercising the float for the fuel level, lessening the chance of a stuck gas gauge?

    Depending on the condition of that 2 year old gas that was in there, I might suggest replacing the fuel filter when you add new gas.

    Also, to answer the driving location, I think some members are suggesting that you exercise the car a little. Run it through it's paces, maybe even a shot wide open throttle or two. Don't worry, you won't hurt it. If you were gonna hurt it, GM would have never given you the ability to do so.

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    If you have a 15 gallon tank then conservative estimate is 300-450 miles to run out a full tank. Can you do that much in a day? I'd run it down to a quarter tank then fill it up with premium, and add some injector cleaner to clear varnish out of the system, then take a day trip somewhere if you can do it. Park it with less than half a tank, not half a tank exactly but no more than half a tank

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Okay. Now answer my questions
    1. I am taking her out on Sunday...this Sunday (UNless it rains - which is NOT forcast.)
    The car had 1/2 a tank in it, of old gas. I took it out for a ride (about 5 miles) 3 weeks ago. At that time I filled it with Exxon Supreme Premium. Since then, I have gond over to where I store it, and have started her many many times, each time letting her idle - running - for 20 or more minutes. The fuel level is now down to 60 percent full. 30% is old & 30% is 3 weeks old.
    Do I:
    add no new gas
    add new gas, but do not fill
    or
    fill again with new gas.
    Under hood, there are no leaks, and no bad smells while running.
    When I drove her 3 weeks ago, she performed flawlessly, in all regards.

    Lastly why NO Garden State Parkway GSP ??
    Better in stop & go traffic ??? Thanks.
    Anyway, if it were me... My primary concern would be clearing that old junk ASAP. No more mixing, no more running the car with it... It needs to go, period. Like I mentioned earlier, that gas started deteriorating around the 6 month mark and became essentially useless by the time of it's first "birthday."

    Instead of simply reiterating the fact gas should never be allowed to sit, let's take a step back for a moment and address why it is - so to perhaps give you better insight into the matter. Gasoline's minimal "shelf" life results from it being a highly refined substance with very specific and pertinent qualities which allows your engine to burn it cleanly and efficiently.

    There are three things that will generally happen as gas degrades over time, the first of which is the actual of loss of stored energy in the gas itself. Just as the gasoline is vaporized when it's mixed with air and ignited - the most volatile, energy rich parts of the gas will naturally evaporate over time leaving the overall volatility (sort of think octane, if you like) of the remaining volume dramatically reduced. Thereby making it not only harder to burn, but also harder for your engine to make sense of appropriate air/fuel ratios. Relatively speaking however, this is the lesser of the problems.

    Another problem that arises is water contamination... This particular degradation could very well be part of the reason for your "white smoke" coming from the exhaust. As a fuel tank sits, especially one that isn't completely full, moisture can and will condense in the tank as well as the fuel lines. This issue is even more prevalent with modern fuels which have varying levels of ethanol content... As ethanol is highly hydroscopic, it will actually draw moisture out of the surrounding air. Aside from the well known fact that fire and water don't mix very well, the biggest issue with this is its potential for internal oxidation, ie - rusting of the tank and lines. The resultant oxidized particulates can represent the potential for even more damage as we get to the biggest problem...

    Oxidation of the gas itself... All of the (slightly less) volatile hydrocarbons (which haven't evaporated) in the gasoline can and will react with oxygen, subsequently creating different, undesirable compounds that literally change the composition of that once highly refined volume of gas. Long story short, it's this process that creates all that varnish and "gum" which wreaks havoc with your entire fuel system - from the pump, to the lines, to the filter, all the way to the injectors.

    Either way, my apologies for the lengthy explanation, but as you can see... By letting gas sit for so long, it creates some seriously bad juju for your car. Especially since all those things I said start around the 6 month mark and are in full swing by 1 year... At 2 years, I cringe at the thought of what shape your entire fuel system is currently in.

    SOOOO.... Now that you now know why old gas is bad... If it were me and my car, this would be my ONLY course of action...

    Go up to the local auto parts store and pick up (assuming you don't have one) a good old fashioned siphon with a good length of hose (say at least 3 feet or so and should only cost $10-15). Next - go home, find an appropriate receptacle, and start siphoning out as much of the old gas as is humanly possible. Then empty a 12oz bottle of the Chevron Techron Concentrate (which was also picked up at the store) and fill the tank half way with premium. Finally, and most importantly - run the snot out of the car and empty the half a tank as quickly as possible - a second application of Techron and another half tank may be warranted. If all is well, fill the tank with premium and then have the oil changed.

    After that... Make sure to never, EVER let gas sit for more than 4-6 months. If you're not going to run the car more, then you may find it necessary to NOT fill up completely when you get gas... Start filling with smaller quantities if you feel a full tank won't be used within 6 months.


    Ohhh... and with regard to the Parkway... My only mention of avoiding it stems from your cosmetic concerns with the car. I wouldn't even take a beater on the Parkway (up your way at least) with all the twists, changes in numbers of lanes, and especially with how others drive on it. My main point with that was just to pick good roads at smart times to drive on... Go out at 3am on Rt 80 if necessary.

    If nothing else, just make an honest effort to drive it more... You need to find a balance between cosmetic concerns and mechanical concerns - neither should be neglected in favor for or fear of the other. Because at this point, your obsession towards keeping the car looking "mint" is going to start having adverse effects on keeping it running "mint."

    Again... Sorry again for the length post - just get that old gas outta there post haste!

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    Thanks.
    Forget this Holiday weekend, nut inder normal times, I find the GSP in the mid-morning (10 to noon) to be pretty empty, especially on Tuesdays & Thurrsdays. I also like the run up South Orange Ave to Columbia Turnpike, past Morristoen Airport to Morristoen Center, and back to the Seton Hall University Area.

    Have a nice holiday !

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    WOW, I got up early, and got out of here and took the Caddy for a ride. We went 20 miles. She performed flawlessly, in every respect. I noticed that even though - in the beginnig when the motor was cold, shortly after getting on the raod and up to 30 MPH, the smoke stopped! At adle, in the storage place, she'd smoke for 15 minutes, before stopping.
    We did some very very steep hills, and varied speeds. Top end was around
    40 MPH, as I was not going near the hi speed interstates on this holiday, 'cause that is where all the delays were.
    When we returned to storage, of course...no light grey smoke. She really went 100% great. This coming week is an an appt. at the Caddy dealer, for new fluids and between now & then, I will do a start-up or 2 to see haw the smoking is doing. I am now down to 8 gallons of gas. The deadler is far away (20 miles art least and the roads leading there are all 55 MPH, so, she'll be going fast. On ther return, I'll put in fresh premium gas.

    My landlord where I keep her, marvels at the car, saying, "It's brand new" and "I never saw anything like it".

    The Dealer I go to is excellent, one of the best. If it's still smoking until reaching normal operating temperature I am sure he'll find what to do. I hope.

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    the recluse is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    Top end was around 40 MPH...leading there are all 55 MPH, so, she'll be going fast.
    Really?!?!?



    55 mph in that car is like 1500 rpm! That car is capable of 120+. OPEN it up, get the juices flowing.... your 63, not 83... 75 mph will not blow the doors off and wreck the car. Your car will put out exactly what is asked of it, which is not always good.

    My dad had bought a '68 Challenger from a "little old lady" who took the car back and forth to the grocery store for some 4 or 5 years (mind you this was back in 1975 or so). The car never got over 30 when she drove it. He buys it and takes it up and down the highway, WOT, and couldn't get the car over 50-55. The car was so gummed and carbon-ed up, that it was impossible to get it to move. He sold it rather that take the whole thing apart (from carbs to cylinders to heads).

    Don't kill the car with kindness

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    I had a surprise today! I went over to storage and started her up! Art first, no smoke ! Then at 5 minutes running a little smoke, still light - very light , grey. Prior, she smoked for 15 minutes & then stopped. Today she smoked for only 5 minutes!! After just one running , yesterday. I had no time to take her out, today. I will take her out on tuesday, when i have time, if it's not raining.
    Tuesday is a light traffic day and the holiday is behind us. Traffic should be very light. May take the gsp (garden state parkway)
    she felt 'as new" strong, and tight, still with those horrid late
    90s brakes. A/c blew icey cold, everythng i tried, worked.

    I need to take her for oil change, and oil & air filters at the caddy dealaer.

    She is down to 8 gallons gas, after a round trip to dealer, that should be down to under 5 gallons.

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    I don't know how these old 4.9's are, but I know if you did that to a Northstar you'd be looking at alot of problems. If it were my car, I'd open it up a little to clean all that old gas and gunk out and then see if your problems continue. When I got my Seville 2 years ago it had a slight cold carbon knock... and a I simply took it out on a back road and got on it (aka dogged the piss out of it) and it was gone the next day. However, my car enjoys the attention

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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    I would love to tell you to run regular fuel in the old 4.9 but then this thread would turn into a gas war. Premium fuel just carbons up a low performance engine and yours certainly never gets warm enough to ever experience any detonation. The only time I could envision a low performance engine needing premium fuel would be in extreme heat conditions which I never experience. When you get over 10:1 compression ratio then you are starting to talk performance engine. The Honda V4 motorcycles that I play with have 11:1 compression and they still get carboned up when people run premium fuel in them. Oh well, sorry for the potential gas war but that premium fuel just burns too slow for most normal engines.

  15. #30
    drewsdeville is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Opinions on my very special '93 FWD C-Body

    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac_al View Post
    I would love to tell you to run regular fuel in the old 4.9 but then this thread would turn into a gas war. Premium fuel just carbons up a low performance engine and yours certainly never gets warm enough to ever experience any detonation. The only time I could envision a low performance engine needing premium fuel would be in extreme heat conditions which I never experience. When you get over 10:1 compression ratio then you are starting to talk performance engine. The Honda V4 motorcycles that I play with have 11:1 compression and they still get carboned up when people run premium fuel in them. Oh well, sorry for the potential gas war but that premium fuel just burns too slow for most normal engines.
    4/4 of my '90+ 4.x's pinged using regular fuel. Believe me, I've tried it on every engine. 4/4 can't be a coincidence.

    9.5 compression ratio along with the pcm timing tables that GM used certainly requires premium fuel. After all, why would they bother to put "Premium Fuel Only" on the dashboard, on the fuel door and in the manual if it wasn't the case?

    And where does gasoline, premium or regular, "carbon up" any engine, performance or not, when it runs correctly?

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