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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, Spark Plugs: What do YOU run? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Well, either way, you DO still have a fueling difference between banks. Do the charts for the E046 give you ...
  1. #31
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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Well, either way, you DO still have a fueling difference between banks. Do the charts for the E046 give you any leads?.


    What about a restriction or leak in one of the exhaust manifolds or one side of the y pipe. If I remember correctly, that car has a crossUNDER pipe. Is it collapsed/crushed?

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Hmm.. you may be on to something... I checked the rich o2 charts but not E046. I'll do the tree tomorrow but what's interesting is:

    "Likely causes of code e046 are:
    1. Lean or faulty injectors on one side of the engine.
    2. Cracked or fouled spark plugs.
    3. Exhaust or intake manifold leak."

    #1 is unlikely since I've replaced so many injectors, #2 MIGHT be possible but it runs pretty smooth to have a fouled plug or misfire issue... #3 would give me at least one LEAN bank so I really doubt that one.

    Definitely will change plugs after I calculate mileage. After that I replace ECM... again.... Another 'CarDone' reman unit.

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    You are right about leakage, but what about blockage? What would that do? You'd be surprised at the number of cars on the road with damaged crossunder pipes. It'd probably be worth it to take a peek underneath when it's light out.

    Just throwing things out there for you. Now, I too, am just guessing at this point.

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Quote Originally Posted by drewsdeville View Post
    What about a restriction or leak in one of the exhaust manifolds or one side of the y pipe. If I remember correctly, that car has a crossUNDER pipe. Is it collapsed/crushed?
    Yep a crossunder pipe just like your eldo. It's not crushed or damaged in any way. I'm not too comfortable being under the car on ramps while it is running but there are no audible leaks as far as I can tell.

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    So as it stands now:

    1. Continue driving and calculate mileage and fuel info data accuracy.

    2. Change plugs (AC Delco standard)

    3. Check plug wire resistance and perform HEI performance test per FSM

    4. Replace ECM

    5. Install 2 brand new oxygen sensors of same brand

    6. Purchase full coverage and theft insurance.

    7. Drive to remote area.

    8. Place rag in gas filler tube.

    9. Ignite rag.

    10. File a claim.

    11. Lease a CTS-V and enjoy.

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Man, I'd like to help more...I'm out of options. This isn't even my car and it bugs/intrigues me.


    I'm just a 25 year old with a box of hand tools and some knowledge I learned on the go.

    I'm a civil engineering student, not even remotely related.

    Where's all the diehard Caddy tech-heads? Sub, Ranger, Jake? Not Northstar related but basic concepts are all the same!

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sevillian273 View Post
    I dont recall if there was a difference from L to R with the previous Bosch III's but I had 89 counts at idle which was rich. I now have 111 for the left and 98 for the right. Both should read the same. Something still isnt right but I suspect that the lesser flowing stock injectors have alleviated the driveability issue. As for the extended crank, I'm clueless. I'll give it some more time while I calculate the new mileage before I go for a new computer.

    I dont see what else could cause one side to run richer than the other. The only kind of sensor that is specific to each bank is the O2's. Other than that you have injectors and sparkplugs. The rest of the system affects both banks the same. Fuel pump, rail, FPR, MAP, MAT, ISC, TPS, ECT - none of those can influence just one side of the engine.

    :
    I have another question. Is there anything that says it can't be the opposite? What if the 98 bank is running correctly and the 111 bank is lean vs the 98 being rich and 111 correct? My 4.9's integrator counts reside around the same ranges you describe in this thread (usually <128, varying depending on throttle given/conditions), but yours differ per bank where mine are the same across both banks. This does tell you that the engine runs a little rich overall (maybe by the influence of one of the global controls), but it can't tell you which bank is the problematic one in the difference, right?

    We can't just assume that the value closer to 128 is the bank that runs correctly, can we?

    If the scenario where the 98 bank is actually the correct one, then it's possible that there's a vacuum leak on the 111 bank, making it run more lean on the 98 bank.

    I guess overall what I'm trying to say is if you have a global control reducing pulse width that's fine as long as it's working correctly and it's keeping a 14.7:1 ratio. But the difference in banks is certainly an indication of a problem and I'm not quite sure if the integrator values give enough information to tell us which bank is the problem.

    Now that you've swapped out injectors, is there a way to reset the block learn value and start fresh? Disconnect the battery? The car is now running on block learn values for the old injectors and will take a while to change (I think).

    Also, I noticed you only gave 1 value for the block learn, 118. Keep in mind that the pcm stores multiple block learn values for different conditions. It doesn't use the same block learn value for idle , part throttle, and full throttle. It's a "staged" value.

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Before the single oem injector failed it always said 128 give or take a few for both banks but at that time I had no idea what that parameter even stood for. I only take the time to read the FSM and learn about this madness when there is a problem. I understand what your getting at and it may be possible but I tend to doubt it because I never saw such lower values before and I'm running OEM 4.5 injectors now. But the idea does make sense. There are still driveability issues but they are better than before presumably because the system had to 'correct' with higher-flow-than-stock injectors(19#).

    128 is what the computer wants and that's what it resets to for each 'cell' (or whatever its called) and intends to keep it that way but the output from the o2's are telling the computer that 128 is too much fuel. The FSM says that 128 is ideal and means that the computer does not need to adjust the fuel mixture so for now I'm taking that as gospel. So I wouldnt say that the one that runs closer to 128 is the one that runs correctly, just the one that needs less correction for whatever reason. I dont know enough about the system to say whether or not it is acceptable for the engine to run so much less than 128 at every different throttle condition but I know for sure that there shouldnt be a fueling imbalance.

    Btw block learn is 108 not 118, my bad. From what I understand block learn is like an average of the integrator counts but I'm not sure how it comes into play in the system. Funny, its 108 for both banks despite the fueling difference. There's only 2 parameters for block learn, L and R, So maybe it changes for each 'cell'? I'll have to take a look. Either way I'm still not sure what it means. I need to talk to the folks who DESIGNED this system. I bet they would have a good laugh at all my speculations.

  9. #39
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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sevillian273 View Post

    Btw block learn is 108 not 118, my bad. From what I understand block learn is like an average of the integrator counts but I'm not sure how it comes into play in the system. Funny, its 108 for both banks despite the fueling difference. There's only 2 parameters for block learn, L and R, So maybe it changes for each 'cell'? I'll have to take a look. Either way I'm still not sure what it means. I need to talk to the folks who DESIGNED this system. I bet they would have a good laugh at all my speculations.
    Yes, I think that's correct. If you leave block learn displayed while driving, it changes per conditions. IT uses a value when you are at idle, another while accelerating, etc.

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Where's all the diehard Caddy tech-heads? Sub, Ranger, Jake? Not Northstar related but basic concepts are all the same!
    This one is beyond me Drew. That's why I'm sitting it out.

  11. #41
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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Post #2. Spark plugs. The OP has a 4.5 and that engines' electronics are not in my experience bank.

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Today I put in new plugs - AC Delco standards. managed to do it from above this time by removing the heater hoses. Anyways, no more hard starts! But I didnt have hard starts before I switched to Allante injectors..wtf? All the old plugs(Autolite Double Platinum) had a cherry red coating on one side just like I described in my thread about red o2 sensors. All looked the same except #4 which had a silvery coating on top of the ground electrode. It had the appearance of lead or zinc like a galvanized bolt. Strange.....

    Before I did the plugs I checked the mileage. I started with 12.3 gallons and drove until I had 6.3. So 6 actual gallons consumed but the 'Fuel Used' said 4.4. That's 1.9 gallons unaccounted for and that's all on the new allante injectors. I'm stumped. In those 6 gallons I went 87.7 miles which comes out to 14.62mpg. Dont know what's going on. I'll fill up and check again on these new plugs.

    On these new plugs there is still an integrator difference of around 10 counts. After the plug change I recorded this:

    IDLE 600rpm, temp 195, in Park
    121 LINT
    113 RINT

    108 L B/L
    108 R B/L

    10 L CROSS
    11 R CROSS

    L OXY VOLTS .11 to .73 <---perfect
    R OXY VOLTS .53 to .85 <---rich but I shouldnt have seen ANY cross counts if .53v is the lowest value. It has to cross .45 to make a cross count. Interesting...

    Also, while driving, the integrator counts are now very close from L to R - within 5 counts or so. At 1800 rpm steady cruising they both read 133. Looks pretty good to me.

    So time for a fill up and another mileage calculation on the new plugs and then I'll go from there.

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Don't have any idea how the computer uses miles traveled compared to fuel flow to get MPG, but it sounds like it's messed up somehow. Must be a transducer in there someplace to measure fuel flow.

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Quote Originally Posted by steelybill View Post
    Don't have any idea how the computer uses miles traveled compared to fuel flow to get MPG, but it sounds like it's messed up somehow. Must be a transducer in there someplace to measure fuel flow.
    It knows how much fuel is sprayed for a given pulse width and then adds up all those pulse widths. Usually the discrepancy indicates leaking injectors because each leaking drip isnt accounted for by the computer because that leaking fuel wasnt commanded to go into the engine. The fuel used according to the fuel sender in the tank and the 'Fuel Used' on the DIC should be VERY close. The system divides miles traveled by fuel used to give you mpg.

    Also I spoke too soon about the hot starts.... I got 4 normal starts after the plugs, one cold and 3 hot. Posted the follow-up then went to go get dinner 2 hours later and its consistently hard starting just like before.

    I still have no concrete evidence that the hard starts and the fuel data inaccuracy have anything to do with my rich running and fuel imbalance! This is madness!

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    Re: Spark Plugs: What do YOU run?

    Update:

    Fuel data accuracy has improved after the new plugs but it is still too far off to be normal and hard starts continue.

    Begin 17.1 gallons
    End 8.7
    DIC Fuel used: 7.1
    ACTUAL Fuel Used: 8.4

    Difference: 1.3 gallons

    Miles traveled: 126.6
    DIC Avg Econ: 17.7

    Actual Calculated Econ: 15.0
    I see an improvement here. The DIC used to say 21.4mpg when the calculated mpg was 14.6.

    Mileage Accuracy difference before the plugs: 6.8mpg After the plugs: 2.7

    So the new plugs have made an improvement.. I dont know how but at this point I dont care.


    And check this out... Went to replace my FPR hose today and noticed a hissing sound from the TB. One of the 'new' Allante injectors is leaking loudly and there is fuel down in the TB. Bastards. That explains the sudden hard start issue after I put them in. I guess it wasnt bad enough to notice before. Now I'm getting set up to R n R the rail and injectors for the FIFTH time and put the Bosch III's back in. I cant have my crankcase full of gasoline.. good thing its about time for an oil change.

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