1985 Eldo Gas Leaking out of the Charcoal Can

[Elwood]

Hey gentlemen, I have a new question regarding my “low miles” 85’ Eldorado. I really thought I had everything cured after getting the distributor timed correctly, car has been running great, getting 20.5 mpg on my commute. However, last Friday I had what seems to be a new problem on the way home in 100+ degree heat with the A/C on. After ~20 minutes of driving the car would not slow to a normal idle speed, maintaining about 15-1600 rpm with no throttle applied. I could also smell raw fuel and when I got home there was gasoline dripping out of the front of the left front fender. Inspection revealed that the emission control charcoal canister tray was full and overflowing gasoline.
I waited until Sunday to give it the once over, verifying all the vacuum tubing and then removed and overhauled the charcoal canister, cleaning all the filters above and below the charcoal fill after reading a few threads that seemed to suggest these might be the problem. Drove the car to work again today and although it ran fine with no noted “idle speed” problems I still have liquid gasoline laying in the charcoal canister tray again. It’s still hot here and I did run the air all the way home.
Where should I start looking for possible causes on this issue?

[cadillac_al]

85 was change over time. I can't remember if the 85 Eldo is carb or FI. If it's carb it sounds like the float may be stuck.

[Elwood]

Thanks Al, but mine is the fuel injected model 4.1. The fuel tank is less than 1/2 full when this has occured, and now that I'm looking for it I may have this problem every time I drive it. Got to work today and sniffed around the front end and have a definate raw fuel odor behind the left headlight after a 30 minute commute, local temperature ~70.

[Ranger]

You have a problem with the EVAP system. You should get your hands on a FSM and read up on how the system works and that should help you trouble shoot it. I forget what liquid in the canister means, but something is not operating properly.

[carnut]

I'll read up on it tonight and post tommorrow. I have an 83 service manual and except for the radio, its identical to your 85. Its for sale. Pm me.

[Elwood]

Hey thanks guys. If you happened to check my other recent threads you'd see I replace the entire ignition system up the the distributor, which turned out to be my problem all along. I hope to get some time this weekend to go back and recheck grounds, particularly in the used distributor I installed. I tried to check diagnostics last night when the car was still warm and could not get the display head to take inputs from either the "off" or "warmer" push button, but tonight after it cooled off the display head worked normaly and I was able to retrieve soft error codes 22, 23 and 52. The TPS is <2500 miles old and since I was just into the harness at the distributor I think I'll start there. The FSM didn't really give me much to go on unless the ECM is running with purge valve open long enough that it saturates the carbon filter. It probably dumps >1 quart of fuel in a 30 minute drive at > 95 degree ambient temperature so something changed in the last few days.
Thanks again, and keep up the good work!

[carnut]

After reading the FSM I believe the issue is with the solenoid on the canister itself. The manual talks about going into diagnostics and confirming vacuum in open loop, no vacuum at closed loop and verifying thru the switch tests that a test light blinks. Bottom line is either the solenoid is faulty or the ECM does not supply the signal to switch it. Appears the solenoid is part of the canister, not seperate.

[Elwood]

Finally got a chance to mess with the Eldo again this week and eliminated the fuel tank hardware as a source, but have more strange symptoms.
First, I confirmed all the vacuum and electrical pertaining to the charcoal canister was connected and apparently functional, then I disconnected the tank vent from the canister. Also cleaned and re-bonded the ground wire inside the used distributor I installed recently and re-tightened the body grounds at the core support and fire wall in the engine bay. The first morning commute everything worked as normal, no issues, however when attempting to start the car for the return home in the evening the ICS began to rapidly stroke the throttle as soon as the key reached the on position. I switched the key from off to on about 15 times and this symptom disappeared, and the car started and ran normally all the way home. My commute is about 13 miles with normally very few stops, about 25-30 minutes. Morning temps were in the 60s, afternoon in the 80’s.
The next day the morning drive was normal but I had to make a stop on the way home. The car started and ran normally in the afternoon, but when I returned an hour later the car was very difficult to start. Once started the idle speed remained at ~2000rpm and the diagnostic display/climate/fuel control center displayed normally but would not accept inputs. These symptoms went away after about a two mile non-stop cruise at about 40mph. Symptoms returned after another 10 minutes of stop and go driving with the A/C on and persisted the rest of the drive. Outside temp was ~92 degrees.
The next morning the car started normally but the diagnostic display was completely dark, no indicators at all, and the system seemed to be in “high temp, high fan” mode. The car drove normally and after about 20 minutes of the commute the display head suddenly came on with normal instant fuel economy displayed and temperature control set at 99 and in “Hi” mode. I was able to change settings and perform all normal functions on the display head.
My suspicion now is either a high temperature sensitive sensor or temperature sensitive high resistance ground connection, possibly associated with the display head. Any other thoughts out there?

[steelybill]

Grounds are a culprit alright. The connectors on your display may be acting up also. Unplugging and re-connecting those a few times has helped with some of the problems I had. The cruise control was one of the items that fixed itself by me fooling with the connectors..

[Elwood]

Gentlemen, I’m still fighting what I believe to be an intermittent or high resistance ground problem and looking for more ideas. Since my last accounting the car (85’ Eldo, 4.1HT) continues to display erratic symptoms from running perfectly to rapidly stroking the ICS causing engine speeds equating to over 70 mph and near in-ability to stop and hold the car at a signal. Last time I was able to check the ECC had recorded soft errors #20, 22 and 26 with no hard code errors.
This weekend I recalibrated the new TPS and ICS per the Factory Service Manual. I measured a 0.0vdc potential from battery negative to G335 on the engine block, but a 0.04vdc potential between negative and G262 on the firewall when the engine is running, and the same to G243 in the cabin on the right cowl. I ran a new #14 ground bonding wire to G262 and G243 from the battery negative #10 wire on the inner fender and got these down to 0.02vdc. While under the dash I pulled and cleaned the connectors on the ECM and ECC programmer and confirmed everything I could see was properly attached. The car had been running fine with all indications normal when I started this work, but when I attempted to reset the ECC after completing the work the ECC was dark again, and has not recovered after 3 short to medium trips. This is disappointing since it is now starting to cool off in the mornings and the A/C seems to have defaulted to ~60 degrees with fan on high.
What is the easiest way to get to the ECC and Fuel Data head electrical connections?

[steelybill]

Doesn't your manual give any info on getting those panels out/off ?? Mine is a FWD fleetwood, and the top of the instrument panel comes off, per the manual. I've had it off once so far. The back-side of the stuff in the panel may be accessable if the top is removed, not sure.

[carnut]

Simple job! The center wood panel is attached with 2 screws at the top and pressure clips on the bottom. Remove upper screws next to the center vents levers. Pull out gently from the bottom of the panel. Once removed, you will see the screws holding these parts on. Remove the screws and pull the control heads forward. Reach behind and depress the locking tabs and remove the wiring connectors. I clean the contacts on the control heads with a pencil eraser and the wiring connector, I apply dielectric grease. Me thinks the climate control head is faulty, Its the heart of the climate system as well as the ECM operation. Going blank will render the climate system fixed at 75 degrees and hi fan will stay on because it cannt read imputs from the under dash module behind the glove box.

[Elwood]

Excellent! Thanks again guys. the ECC and Fuel displays stayed dark until I drove through some construction on the way home tonight. Had to cross a 4" transition in the pavement and displays lit up and now everything works great again. I'll try to pull the dash appart and clean everything I can find in there. According to the book I have a fairly important connector just left of the steering column too so I'll go after that while I'm in there.

[carnut]

Having 2 issues under one thread headline will get you less answers. I went to your post expecting to get the answer to a cannister issue but instead got a new question about climate controls!! So, each problem needs a new post to get the maximum response.