4.1 Biarritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!
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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, 4.1 Biarritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info! in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; New here and so far learned alot about the ol caddy from this site. This '85 Barritz has run great ...
  1. #1
    Landshark's Avatar
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    Unhappy 4.1 Biarritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    New here and so far learned alot about the ol caddy from this site. This '85 Barritz has run great for the last 5-6 years and over 70K miles until now.

    It started a week ago hesitating under load, just off idle. If I floored it, it would pick up and go. It started, idled and free revved great, no problems with no load.

    So last weekend I gave it a tuneup:
    New:
    plugs - .060gap
    wires
    cap / rotor
    coil
    fuel / air filters

    Checked:
    TPS - Didn't have specs but checked with VOHM for smooth operation - good, no flat spots

    EGR - no vac at idle, vac when giving gas. Operated by hand at idle - bogs it down - assuming good

    PCV - cleaned and checked for proper operation

    Cat - Removed the entire exhaust, leaving only the Y-Pipe to ensure no restrictions

    Vacuum leaks - Checked for vacuum leaks with starting fluid (all over the top of engine including the brake booster) - none

    Vacuum reading - steady 20"hg at idle

    None of this helped, in fact it has gotten worse. Now it takes some playing with the gas peddle to get it to start when cold. Then once started it proceeds normal warm up. Once warm it misses at idle. Then when up to operating temp it will not even stay running on it's own without stalling.

    Thanks to this site, I now know how to read the codes and view the data as it runs. There are no codes set while running as it is but there were 3 when checked. Not sure WHEN they were set since I never have checked them....

    Codes
    15/20/44
    Now IF these were set recently I would assume the CTS was bad and needing replaced and the 44 was from the exhaust being removed. 20.....hoping this is an old one as I don't have a gauge for the fuel pressure.

    I ran the diagnostics once warm, and noticed that the idle sticks a bit. It was running about 750-800RPM. Then I lightly tapped the throttle and it knocked it down to the point of stalling. Keep in mind ALL of this is new as of a week ago. It has been flawless until then.

    The reading at operating temp in park:
    PO1 - 1
    PO2 - 36-40
    PO3 - 102
    PO4 - 88
    PO5 - 68
    PO6 - 1.7-2
    PO7 - .29-.37
    PO8 - 16
    PO9 - 27
    P10 - 13.9 - 14.3
    P11 - 75-83 (because not running right and sticking, really only way to complete test without stalling))
    P12 - 0 (duh)
    P13 - 88 (seems to always read 88)
    Quirks:
    1)Cannot go higher than this (P14-15) - it shows .9.5 (guess normal for this year) Would have really liked to read the TCC
    2)When gradually revving motor and watching RPM, the readout will not go beyond 1990 RPM, it stops as I continued with RPM a little (normal?)
    3)MAP looks normal but the BARO is on the high end - took reading after shut down and the MAP read 102 as well??

    I was going to replace the CTS before finding this site and running these test's but now I'm not too sure this is the problem.

    ANY help deciphering this would be GREATLY appreciated!
    If any other info is needed just let me know.

    P.S. where the heck is the MAP sensor on this thing? (not in usual places) and does this have a knock sensor, if so where?

    Sorry for the looong post but I like to be thorough.

    THANKS AGAIN!!

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  3. #2
    Landshark's Avatar
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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Thought I would add that I replaced the exhaust and now it idles fine again and no stalling. Just has the severe hesitation under load. Full throttle acceleration seems fine. I can accelerate on a flat road with NO grade giving it very light throttle. As soon as there is either a grade or moderate throttle it sputters.

    How do the parameters above look? From what I have read they appear normal.
    Could the coolant temp sensor still be causing this or is it most likely the fuel pump? I am just very hesitant to buy the fuel pump without knowing and a fuel pressure gauge cost's about the same as the pump (no local parts place that has a loan a tool program either).

    ANY feedback would be GREATLY appreciated.

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    bigred is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Your MAP sensor readings (.0.2) are maybe a little low for idle. Is the reading different now that it idles OK?


    The MAP sensor on this model is behind the instrument panel to the right of the glove compartment. You have to remove the glove compartment box & probably the right lower panel pad to get to it.

    There is no knock sensor in this engine family.

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    kcnewell is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Have you screwed a fuel pressure gauge onto the fitting on the fuel inlet line and watched the fuel pressure when the problem occurs. Just tape it to the hood so you can drive with the fuel pressure gauge visible and watch the fuel pressure for any signs of irregularity. It should stay at about 10PSI constantly with the TBI system.

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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Thanks for the responses.

    Yeah the MAP readings did increase to 46-50 at cold idle afterwards.

    I'm begining to suspect the EGR. It does choke the motor when manually operated at idle but does not open under vacuum.

    There is vacuum to it above idle as called for but the valve just doesn't open. I tested it with straight manifold vacuum and it doesn't budge (in park and brake standing).

    There is no doubt it is bad but do you think this could cause the hesitation by being stuck closed?

    Thanks again!

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    kcnewell is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Lack of EGR will definitely cause it to hesitate as the fueling is being leaned in anticipation of the EGR flow so without the EGR it will cause the engine to hesitate at part throttle.

    You have to hold the car with the brakes in drive and lightly crowd the throttle for the valve to acutate. It will not turn on at idle or revving in neutral.

    The valve has a fairly complex diaphragm system inside the "hat" of the valve that senses exhaust backpressure in the EGR exhaust feed passage. So the valve will not open or move with the simple application of vacuum to the vacuum nipple.

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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Thanks for the confirmation!
    Yeah, that's exactly how it was tested. I actually had him gradually give it enough gas to create the hesitation while in drive, at about 1700 RPM.

    It won't be until next month before he can get a new one as they run $70 and he's on a limited budget (retired).

    Again, thank you. I will post the results after the new EGR is installed.

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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Since we have to wait until next month I decided to try something I read somewhere.

    I took the TB and EGR off and cleaned them up (They weren't bad at all). While I had the EGR off I covered the vent holes under the diaphram and tried sucking through a vacuum hose attached. It did move so I installed it that way. It ran alot better.

    Now, I know there isn't supposed to be a way of testing these positive back pressure type EGR's so I wonder what this might indicate other than I'm an idiot?

    Any comments on this?

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    peteski is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    That is so weird - I have a very similar problem on my 85 Eldo ! It is driving me nuts ! But I have no time to spend on it right now. So, I'll be watching this thread to see what you find.


    My engine is low milage: 39k miles. And I did have a bad EGR valve but replacing it caused some other issues. Basically the engine idles so smooth that you can't tell it is running. Higher throttle is also ok. But when I drive on partial throttle, it surges and doesn't run smooth (when it is warmed up) When it is cold, it works fiine. Also, several times in hot weather when driving on the highway the engine would lose power. If I would slow down the engine would be surging ( I had to keep pressing the accelerator to keep it running). Next day, it would be fine. This is very intermittant !
    I did check my fuel pressure ant it was ok.

    Like I said, when I get some time, I'll get all my info together and start another thread.

    Good luck with yours !
    Peteski

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    baldizzone is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Had similar problems with my '83 Biarritz. intermittent stalling and hesitation under load. My mechanic diagnosed low fuel pressure and replaced the fuel pump. Problem solved and the car runs better than ever with an increase in MPG to boot.

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    peteski is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Thanks !
    I checked the pressure (but the car was parked).
    I'll have to fnd a way to get a longer hose on my gauge. That way I can hang it out over the hood to get readings while I'm driving and when the problem occurs.

    Peteski

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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    I was just wondering if you ever found out what was causing the hesitation in your 4.1 engine ? Was it the EGR valve ? Vacuum lines ? Does it smoke while hesitating ? Thanks

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    peteski is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Quote Originally Posted by SoundAdvantage
    I was just wondering if you ever found out what was causing the hesitation in your 4.1 engine ? Was it the EGR valve ? Vacuum lines ? Does it smoke while hesitating ? Thanks
    If you are asking me then no.
    Actually ther story gets even weirder...
    I disconnected my EGR vacuum line to the EGR valve. Plugged up the line from the solenoid to prevent any vac. leaks. That made the car have much more power and no hesitaton.
    I know, this is only temporary setting - I'll hook it back up once I figure out everything.

    I drove it few days last week. Temperature here was in the 80s.
    Basically, I can drive the car all day long on back streets and it is ok (without EGR). Strong pickup, idles so smooth that you can't tell engine is on.

    But if I take the car on a highway, then the problem shows up ! Actually, the car rides fine on the highway. It is when I exit and coast to the bottom of the off-ramp, the trouble starts.
    Cars idles very rough and has no pickup. It wants to stall. Once I get it to move again, it keeps surging. It is not too bad in first gear, but once it upshifts, it is again surging badly.
    If I keep driving for a while, sometimes it smooths out again. If I park it for a while and then start and drive again, everything is again ok until I drive on the highway and get off of it again. Same problem starts. I tried a 8 mile and 2 mile highway trips - same bad results... When it is acting up, if I put it in park and let the engine idle, it runs smooth.
    It is almomst as if the car doesn't like getting off the highways !


    I had the fuel pressure gauge on it (but in the engine compartment). It showed pressure around 12psi. But of course when I was checking it the engine was idling ok.

    I just finished building an extension for my fuel press. gauge. I'll be experimenting next week...

    Peteski

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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Quote Originally Posted by peteski
    But if I take the car on a highway, then the problem shows
    up ! Actually, the car rides fine on the highway. It is when I exit and coast to
    the bottom of the off-ramp, the trouble starts.
    Cars idles very rough and has no pickup. It wants to stall.
    humm that kinda sounds like a lock-up solenoid

    Problem: You pull up to a light after cruising down the road for a few miles and
    the engine stops dead. You put it into park and it starts just fine. Drop it into
    drive and it stalls dead. What's going on here??

    The problem of your stalling unexpectedly can have many causes. This
    discussion has to do with one cause for stalling, the transmission converter
    lock-up clutch.

    A converter lock-up clutch is used to prevent any "slipping" of the fluid
    coupling effect that all automatic transmissions use to connect the engine to
    the transmission. This clutch is supposed to lock the converter when you are
    at highway speed as well as many other criteria. The problem occurs when
    that clutch fails to disengage as you slow down and then stop. The result is
    that the engine stalls dead - just like it would if you were to come to a
    complete stop with a standard transmission without depressing the clutch!!

    Yanking the wire on the side of the transmission is one "solution" which is
    used, however there is a risk that you may cause the tranny to overheat. All
    transmissions that have lock-up converters are designed to lock at higher
    speeds. The fluid will heat up excessively under high speed driving loads, while
    pulling a heavy load or travelling on hilly highways. Your best bet is to go to a
    tranny shop and have the lock-up solenoid inside the transmission replaced.

    For more in-depth discussion of this topic go HERE.

    Hope this helps if not it was a thought

  16. #15
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    Re: 4.1 Barritz hesitation and stalling - long with lots of info!

    Well, I assume it's the EGR from the advise however I haven't had time to get a new one to replace it yet.

    Soon, I hope.

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