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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; As for the bolting up the 4.1 alt on a 4.9 block the rear bolt wont match the block but ...
  1. #31
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    As for the bolting up the 4.1 alt on a 4.9 block the rear bolt wont match the block but the rear casing of the alternator needs to be turned so the connector will fit. As for the connnectors for the alternator to the 4.9 block it fits I will post pics when I get home

  2. #32
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    the older cs 144 have the third back bolt on the side and the newer cs 144 has the third bolt near the center of the alternator
    Attached Images

  3. #33
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    The engine came into the shop and I tore it down to the intake. I took some pictures while I was hacking on it but forgot the last AFTER pic, so I will post those tomorrow. The only real problem I have found was an abnormal leak on the left side of the oil pan gasket. There was also some oil higher up the left side that looked like the valve cover was leaking, but the oil may have been riding up.





    We are replacing stuff that would be hard to fix later (within reason) in order to reset maintenance intervals, so we are doing seals and gaskets for the rear main, the timing cover set (including front main), intake manifold , the oil pan and the valve covers, along with water pump and a couple of other things. Anything that's on top of the engine will be swapped as needed, not as prevention.

    It's really interesting that almost all of the Fel-Pro boxes say the applications are from 1985 4.1 to 1995 4.9. One difference is that the valve covers are scalloped on top to provide room for the fuel injector ports, which means they are a different shape than the boxy rectangular valve cover. I may have to use a 4.5 TBI intake just so I'm not advertising the "V8 PFI" in big red letters every day (the letters are embossed in the valve cover so they can't be sanded off).

    I am starting my pile of leftover parts with the entire injector rail, injectors, entire engine harness, throttle body with air cleaner, and distributor. If you want dibs on something send me a PM otherwise I'll eBay the stuff I don't need when it's over.







    My deal with the shop is that they will replace any of the parts that may require significant disassembly to repair later, so they are doing most of the gaskets and seals, and will reinstall the intake after I plug off the port injector holes (assuming I keep it).

    I still need to go to the junkyards and figure out the parts interchange. I think I will keep my existing alt and A/C compressor, and am mostly just interested in the power steering. There are a couple of companies selling reservoirs and pulleys so I could probably build a whole system from retail parts, and hard line is still the issue.

  4. #34
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    NAPA has power steering hoses for 91 DeVille... It would be nice if that worked with the 85 rack and pinion

    The part numbers are NPS 73273 (supply) and NPS 72844 (return)

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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    That DOES look pretty clean. I wonder if it was pulled and pressure washed a long time ago...there's usually at least a LITTLE bit of seapage at the intake manifold end seals, but it looks perfectly clean in those spots

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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    Here are some more pics, one with everything removed down to the intake, then with the intake also removed





    I'm guessing the blue dot on the water pump is significant, but I don't know what it means. The UPC bar code isn't really legible, but I'm guessing it's indicative of a replacement water pump. Maybe the blue dot indicates that it is a rebuilt water pump. Hopefully the engine wasn't overheated. When I was stripping it all down, some green coolant came out of the hose, which indicates that the system had not turned to mud, although you can see a little bit of rust in the outside water ports in the second pic.

    The valve springs on the right side have some kind of green paint on them. No idea what that means, the head mechanic here thinks it's just assembly clue marking.

    The left side has more varnish than the right side, but (1) every 4.x I've looked at is like that, and (2) the varnish is still very light.

    The O2 sensor has a white tip and is clean. Exhaust manifolds are clean inside too. This engine was babied or has low miles, or both maybe. FWIW the reclamation house that sold me the engine said they did not know how to pull mileage from the digital dash in the early 90s, and it wasn't until later that they figured out they could just apply battery voltage... so mileage is unknown but I am guessing around 80k miles, give or take 20k.

    The throttle body openings in the manifold are 76-77mm. The holes are not machined perfectly round.

    I was unable to properly measure the fuel injector ports since the tips of calipers would not reach that far down. However I tried a few bolts and 14mm was an exact fit. I think I am going to use 9/16 freeze plugs with red loctite to guarantee a snug fit.

  7. #37
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    The varnish is nothing to worry about and will return if you bother to take the time to clean it. It's due to the PCV flow.

    Not sure about the blue marking, which looks vivid and clean. Who knows, could even be from the junkyard who pulled the motor. Maybe they have a color system for organization in the warehouse (if this engine was pulled a while ago).

  8. #38
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    I spent some time looking at a complete 4.9 and I think I am going to just keep my accessories. I might change to the newer-style pump and bracket after I do the swap but it doesn't look like there is any significant benefit other than availability, and I already have lots of spare parts for my 85.

    The same junkyard advertised a 1989 4.5 intake but the one they pulled down to show me was PFI.

    For the injection ports, Dorman has a set of brass cup-style freeze plugs that look to be almost perfect. Part num 565-008 is a box of 10 9/16th (14.36mm) deep-wall plugs. They should be a snug fit in the 14mm hole. My plan is to tap them all the way down to the runners, seal the bottom with red loctite, and then fill the upper cavity with black RTV.



    Waiting on parts and for the local shop to install the seals.

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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    Well I was looking at my 4.1 accessories and I found a leak in the high-pressure steering line so I gotta do something sooner rather than later. The hoses that NAPA shows for the 85 are clearly incorrect, and they changed often as GM improved the pump assembly. It's looking more and more like the smart thing to do is replace the steering pump and hoses with parts for the 4.9 and get it over with.

    According to Cardone the rack and pinion is the same part (so inlets are in the same position), and I assume it's mounted in the same place at the back of the sub-frame. If that's the case then I should be able to just replace the pump/reservoir/bracket assembly ($50 at the junkyard for parts from a 91) and buy new hard lines for that year ($60 at NAPA). Seems reasonable assuming the donor pump works.

  10. #40
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    I learned two things today.

    First is that these cars have a power steering fluid cooler that I did not know about. I kept reading about R&P to cooler hose and thinking WTF the diesels have coolers not the gas, but sure enough there is hard line going along the driver side fender and then turning into a little rubber hose that is looped in front of the radiator. Not much of a cooler but I'm sure it works a little bit (and it's a good place to install a real PS cooler later), anyways the lesson is that they actually do have one.

    Second is that the return line is supposed to be rubber from the R&P up, but on my car somebody installed a high-pressure line for the return, so I have hard line for both the supply and return lines that go behind the serp belt pulleys. I imagine the belt broke and tore the soft line at some point, which then led one of my mechanics to get clever and install hard line for the return, but either way it has confused me to no end trying to match that damn hard line with something in the catalogs.

    I still don't know why the 91 DeVille has such a longer high-pressure line. I'll see if I can raid the shop's alldata discs tomorrow and look at the routing.

  11. #41
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    After looking at the hoses and thinking about my options I decided to pull the whole power steering assembly from a 91 SDV at the junkyard. Basically I removed the tensioner bracket from the engine and kept the pump, reservoir, and pulley as a single unit. I also followed the hard lines down the engine until they met the soft parts, then cut them off so I would have the hard line to work with. For the high-pressure line it looks like I can just buy another 85 line and install it (same fitting at the pump). For the low-pressure return, the 91 setup has a quick disconnect fitting at the reservoir adapter piece so I will splice the engine-side piece of hard-line into the existing cooler return line and call that done. That gets me the new gear without having to install the new style plumbing.

    I also grabbed the alternator bracket in case I want to change over later, but I am still planning to reuse the one on my 85.

    I also grabbed a small piece of pipe that is used as a bracket for the A/C compressor on the 4.9. The 4.1 and 4.5 had the compressor bolted onto the smog pump, but when the pump was deleted on the 4.9 they used a little piece of pipe as a substitute bracket, and I needed that piece to delete the smog pump.

    Parts are still coming in, still waiting for the shop to install the seals and gaskets.

  12. #42
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    Got the brass plugs today and did some quick fitment tests. The holes are 14mm and the plugs are ~14.3mm, so they are too big to push in but they deform and tap in with a 12mm bolt pretty well.



    The shop guys think we should use Permatex Right Stuff to seal up the top. I'm tempted to use it for the entire hole. The injectors are kind of cone-shaped so the sealant won't fall through, and we're only talking about 20 mercury inches of vacuum pressure. Fuel injectors are plastic with an O-ring and they don't fall apart or anything. The brass would be nice to ensure that nothing falls through but honestly I think I can make a smoother seal in the runners with just the gasket maker

    I'm running the manifold through the dishwasher now to remove as much grease as possible, and will do the real sealing work tomorrow.

  13. #43
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    This all sounds unnecessarily risky to me, like patching a rad hose with duct tape. You are basically creating 8 extra potential vacuum leak points over a regular TBI manifold. If you are really set on using the PFI manifold, instead of patching it up with some plugs and sealant, you might want to think about having the holes heliarced shut for a more durable solution that you won't have to worry about.

  14. #44
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    If it fails it's just a vacuum leak. The real risks are having something hard fall in, and having to pull the manifold to close it again.

    I'll make a decision today. There is a series of junkyards around Baltimore that charge $25 for an intake manifold so I can still go up there and pull a 4.5 TBI intake assuming I can find one.

  15. #45
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    Re: I'm going to try the 4.1->4.9 conversion

    The brass inserts deformed in weird ways and the more they were banged on the more they deformed. For instance, one wall of the cup would stretch out way longer than the others and there was no way to shrink it down again. So the plugs became less useful the more they were worked, and after a few minutes of trying to work them they were essentially unusable.

    Rather than try to work on the 4.9 anymore I am now trying to find a 4.5 TBI intake. Although I think the Right Stuff would hold up fine as filler (epoxy and welding and other "permanent" modifications are not options), there are some other annoyances about the 4.9 and I think that long term I would be happier with a pure TBI setup. Unfortunately it looks like the only close junkyard with a reasonable price is in Delaware for $75 (junkyards around here want $150 and ebay is in the $80+ range), or I can go further afield like NY or OH and order one for $50ish. Either way nothing happening until Monday, then it will take a few days for the parts to arrive.

    While I was at the shop today I replaced the rocker pivots with new pieces, removed the old water pump and polished the aluminum, and degunked the rest of the engine and parts. Everything is ready and waiting, and we can start assembly next week.

    I keep forgetting to look at the brake booster vacuum setup on the 4.9 DeVilles... where does the vacuum supply come from? They don't have a supplemental vacuum pump right? Any pics would be great. I'm thinking about simplifying some of the vacuum setup and may delete the vacuum pump or (more likely) put it on a pressure switch. In either case I will need to isolate the brake booster vacuum supply

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