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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, 4.9 air filter question... in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Originally Posted by D148L0 Dave, read my last post. It's a biased comparison. There is no way you can verify ...
  1. #16
    99Zee28's Avatar
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    Quote Originally Posted by D148L0
    Dave, read my last post. It's a biased comparison. There is no way you can verify the status of that filter after 4 years of use.
    K&N claims to make more power DIRTY than a new paper filter CLEAN! Also, it's not a 100% accurate test. There are other variables that come into play. To tell you the truth the filters probably made absolutely no difference. The car is always going to perform better/worse on each run. It's never going to run the same exact time EVERY TIME! That's impossible. With the times being almost identicle across the board it just shows that the choice of air filter really makes no difference. The times are too close together to really show a definate advantage from one over another.

    What's a paper filter? $10-15? A K&N is like $60? You can buy approximately 5-6 paper filters over a course of 150,000 miles before buying a K&N would benefit you with it's million mile guarantee. Not to mention you then have to buy the cleaning solutions for the K&N too!

    That's why I tell you people! Leave your cars alone! You're just going to waste your money on these little mods. If you want mods that are worth while they're going to cost $! Then you'll get some gains! An air filter and a flowmaster are not going to do anything!

    Later,
    Dave

  2. #17
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    Quote Originally Posted by bbob
    Guys...air filters are air filters. K&N filters are good....and very expensive....and no better than the production, OEM replacment paper filters... The paper filters filter as good and flow as good. A filter is a restriction in the sytem....regardless of who makes it. As long as the same size filters are compared how can a K&N filter flow more air if it filters as well....???? No scientific reason behind it....just emotion. Of COURSE K&N data shows it to be better.....THEY probably took a dirty paper filter out and replaced it with a clean K&N.....LOL.
    Although I didn't agree with you on the trans flush issue I gotta say I agree with you 100% on this one!!!

    What's your take on Engine Oil Flushes???

    Later,
    Dave

  3. #18
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    Quote Originally Posted by 99Zee28
    Although I didn't agree with you on the trans flush issue I gotta say I agree with you 100% on this one!!!

    What's your take on Engine Oil Flushes???

    Later,
    Dave
    At least we are still speaking.....LOL

    Now what do you THINK that I think of engine oil flushes....???.....LOL....besides them being a complete waste of time and money .....!!!!

    Engine oil flushes prey on the mentality of 1940/50's oil technology. Enough old engines from that era were disassembled with cups full of sludge and grunge in the oil pan and crankcase to permanently etch the idea of needing the "flush the crankcase" into every hot rodders mind. IT JUST DOES NOT HAPPEN ANYMORE. FORGET IT. If you find an engine with sludge or that level of buildup in the crankcase anymore I would love to see it. I have seen engines with 100K on them that had the oil changed every 24K miles and the crankcases were fine. A light film of tan varnish over everything from the heat (the cars were run on a mileage accumlation in southern Texas in the summer) and that is all. I have also seen several engines driven 100K WITHOUT AN OIL CHANGE and they had no sludge or deposits.... Some of our test engines were run all winter on a short trip (1/2 mile drive at a time...) schedule that was severe enough to build up 2 quarts of water in the pan and there was no sludge... There is absolutely no need to flush anything in the engine. Modern oils contain all the detergents and dispersants that are required to clean the crankcase and prevent deposit buildup. And the stuff that was in oil that caused the sludge in the first place disappeared from the oils about 1950. No need to run a can of auto trans fluid thru the oil occasionally, either. All that stuff comes from the 40/50's era and the old wives tales are still hanging on...... One of the worst situations I have ever seen with engine oil was a Northstar that split the coolant recovery bottle, lost all the coolant and was driven 65 miles in 110 ambient back to the garage. The bottle was repaired and the car was put back on the test schedule. It was pulled 1000 miles later for "lifter noise".....the oil was about the consistency of tar from the overheat episode...the shop had not changed the oil.... The oil was changed (no, no flush or anything) and the car went back on the test schedule. 75,000 miles later the engine was torn down and it was fine inside....no sludge, varnish, etc....none.

    If you think you need to flush the crank case then just change the oil...flush it that way....LOL

  4. #19
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    Quote Originally Posted by bbob
    At least we are still speaking.....LOL

    Now what do you THINK that I think of engine oil flushes....???.....LOL....besides them being a complete waste of time and money .....!!!!

    Engine oil flushes prey on the mentality of 1940/50's oil technology. Enough old engines from that era were disassembled with cups full of sludge and grunge in the oil pan and crankcase to permanently etch the idea of needing the "flush the crankcase" into every hot rodders mind. IT JUST DOES NOT HAPPEN ANYMORE. FORGET IT. If you find an engine with sludge or that level of buildup in the crankcase anymore I would love to see it. I have seen engines with 100K on them that had the oil changed every 24K miles and the crankcases were fine. A light film of tan varnish over everything from the heat (the cars were run on a mileage accumlation in southern Texas in the summer) and that is all. I have also seen several engines driven 100K WITHOUT AN OIL CHANGE and they had no sludge or deposits.... Some of our test engines were run all winter on a short trip (1/2 mile drive at a time...) schedule that was severe enough to build up 2 quarts of water in the pan and there was no sludge... There is absolutely no need to flush anything in the engine. Modern oils contain all the detergents and dispersants that are required to clean the crankcase and prevent deposit buildup. And the stuff that was in oil that caused the sludge in the first place disappeared from the oils about 1950. No need to run a can of auto trans fluid thru the oil occasionally, either. All that stuff comes from the 40/50's era and the old wives tales are still hanging on...... One of the worst situations I have ever seen with engine oil was a Northstar that split the coolant recovery bottle, lost all the coolant and was driven 65 miles in 110 ambient back to the garage. The bottle was repaired and the car was put back on the test schedule. It was pulled 1000 miles later for "lifter noise".....the oil was about the consistency of tar from the overheat episode...the shop had not changed the oil.... The oil was changed (no, no flush or anything) and the car went back on the test schedule. 75,000 miles later the engine was torn down and it was fine inside....no sludge, varnish, etc....none.

    If you think you need to flush the crank case then just change the oil...flush it that way....LOL
    Now that was a factual response with actual tests to prove what you are saying!!!

    I heard that the engine oil flush machine, if not monitored properly, can produce too much pressure inside the engine resulting in head gasket failure. Just another reason why you don't want to do an Oil Flush!!!

    Later,
    Dave

  5. #20
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    well this is how its always been explained to me..

    get a napkin and put it to your mouth and try to breath through it... its fairly difficult. now get a sheet or pillow case and try to breathe through it. I believe you ll find it much easier to do. With that simple logic being in mind, a CLOTH KN filter will give faster air intake than a PAPER filter of any kind. Now perhaps that particular vehicle might not need more air intake, but that wouldn't be known unless you put it in the vehicle.

    i noticed that peoples' experience with KN filters are much like people's experiences with women: each one is different and you'll never know for sure unless you try.

    thanks for the help though, ill come back with more questions.

  6. #21
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    Gosh, if a K&N filter is so much better than a paper filter, wouldn't it be better just to ditch the filter altogether? That would probably result in a spectacular performance increase!! Maybe just replace it with a piece of window screen to keep the flies from getting sucked in? I sense an e-bay opportunity..."The ultimate zero-restriction air filter"...10 to 15+ HP increase at least! Maybe I can partner up with the guy selling those performance resistors...

    (The above is meant to be sarcastic and should not be construed as a recommendation).

    Seriously, there's plenty of room in my engine compartment that Cadillac could have easily made the airbox and filter far larger if it was a performance-limiting restriction.

    My guess, after reading posts from bbob about how things are done at GM, is that the stock airflow capacity is way beyond what is necessary, so that everything but the dirtiest stock filter in the worst conditions would still allow the engine to breath adequately.

    I think I need to go pick up some K&N stock. $60 for a piece of oiled cloth? And the oil required to maintain it isn't included? Boy am I in the wrong business!

  7. #22
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    Typically, at GM, air filter elements are sized so that they will operate correctly and not restrict performance or hurt fuel economy (not an issue really with fuel injection as a dirty element will not cause rich operation) with the element 30 to 50% plugged with dust and dirt. What most people consider "dirty" is just starting the test for us. I am talking caked on dust and dirt....and the filter will still work fine. So they generally have plenty of capacity for the production application as it.

    There are some exceptions when packaging was an issue. A 1986/87 Eldo/Seville is one such situation. The long narrow rectangular air filter in that package was big enough....just big enough....to allow about 10% plugging before it started to hurt performance at full throttle. So not all of them are "plenty big" but generally speaking the air filter element is NOT the restriction in the sytem.

    BTW...most people do not realize it but the air filter element gets more and more efficient for filtering the more dirty it gets. The buildup of dust and dirt on the filter face acutally decreases the pore size improving the filtration. If you want good clean air to the engine....run a dirty air cleaner element. Seriously.

  8. #23
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    I would like to get a G-tech someday.... I still have my paper filter that was on my car when I got it... it is pretty clean actually..... my K&N air filter was $60 and the re-oil kit was $11.... i would NOT go 50k miles b/w cleans, only like 15k or so..... so far I have 6k miles on this filter and will be cleaning it soon.... it is my money and I wanted to get the K&N air filter, let it be....

    .... I want to go to a junkyard and get a spare air box, and hack that one up (not mine) and try out some things....

  9. #24
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Night Wolf
    I would like to get a G-tech someday.... I still have my paper filter that was on my car when I got it... it is pretty clean actually..... my K&N air filter was $60 and the re-oil kit was $11.... i would NOT go 50k miles b/w cleans, only like 15k or so..... so far I have 6k miles on this filter and will be cleaning it soon.... it is my money and I wanted to get the K&N air filter, let it be....

    .... I want to go to a junkyard and get a spare air box, and hack that one up (not mine) and try out some things....
    Hey, don't tell anyone but I hacked the stock airbox off my CBX motorcycle and have K&N's on that....LOL....

  10. #25
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    Re: 4.9 air filter question...

    Quote Originally Posted by bbob
    Hey, don't tell anyone but I hacked the stock airbox off my CBX motorcycle and have K&N's on that....LOL....
    Hehe... even if it makes no difference in performance, you gotta love that sound...

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