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HT4100 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Discussion, Should I flush tranny at 52K???? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Originally Posted by 99Zee28 <<<Of course the transmission shop is going to tell you that the flush is okay. It ...
  1. #31
    Geno Castellano is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    Quote Originally Posted by 99Zee28
    <<<Of course the transmission shop is going to tell you that the flush is okay. It makes more business for them (even if they don't realize it) and certainly improves their profit margin by flushing instead of servicing properly. If they flush and the tranny fails then they can always tell the owner that they did "all they could" and it was going to fail anyway.>>>


    I said WORKED at a Trans Shop! Worked, as in Past Tense, means he NO LONGER works there! What benefit would he have to lie to me? Is he gaining any money from it? No! He has no benefit so there is no reason to lie!
    Maybe he just doesn't know what he doesn't know. Rebuilding transmissions or working at a tranny shop does not make him an expert at anything.

  2. #32
    elwesso's Avatar
    elwesso is offline Cadillac Owners Master
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    Settle down ya'll!!!!! Not that big of a deal...

  3. #33
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    Ive already decided ill just drop the pan anyways, I mine as well save the $100 or so dollars and just put a little labor into it.

  4. #34
    Rick8051 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    I used to own a franchise location of a national chain undercar repair shop.
    I can tell you from personal experience how we handled flushes and the results. For one thing, we DID NOT do flushes to vehicles with signifcant trans symptoms such as slipping. We explained the risks to our customers.
    Now a trans that had a VERY slight hesitation shifting from gear to gear we would consider but we still mentioned risks UPFRONT to our customer and usually did not even do those. Now for folks simply wanting to maintain a smooth running trans, I believe our service was effective and valuable. For one thing, our machine NEVER COULD POSSIBLY have old debris in it ! We purged the old fluid and the machines lines completely after EVERY FLUSH. Second, we used the highest quality Pennzoil All purpose fluid. I am NOT a trans guy......our shop was primarily brakes and suspension and exhaust. But we took great care in doing these flushes. As for "cleaners" remaining in tranny, our system which used a cleaner, and then a conditioner at the end, introduced the cleaner first. We then circulated the cleaner throughout the trans with the OLD DIRTY FLUID for about ten minutes. When the old fluid was purged, the cleaner was totally removed. And YES we used A LOT of high quality expensive fluid ! If the trans capacity of your entire system was 14 quarts, the customer left with 14 quarts of new fluid in their vehicle. This is how our machine was set up to work. If the vehicle required Chrysler + 4, for example, by using the Pennzoil multi purpose synthtic fluid, we were ok.
    We looked up vehicle specs for fluid on EVERY FLUSH. If the specs required a grade or viscosity that Pennzoils guide DID NOT say was covered by this multi purpose synthetic fluid, then we simply told this to the customer and DID NOT PERFORM THE FLUSH. We also did occasional pan and filter service in addition to to the flush if requested or if the milage was high. Now I realize that many shops may not take all these precautions. Some how, you must find out if your shop does it right like we did. If so, I believe it is a good service, although as I stated above, I am not a tranny guy. We never had a problem. Believe me, our cost of goods and therfore our profit margin was not all that high on this service. We could have used cheap trans fluid for HALF the cost of the Pennzoil stuff we were using. Also, I will not name them, but the additive company we used as our supplier is one of the most respected and tested in the business and is one of the very few additvie companies approved by most new car dealerships. All of the above is why we had to charge approx $100 on most cars for this service. When a customer would object and tell us the Quick Lube up the street was doing it for $69, can you imagine trying to take the time to explain to them everything I just said here?!?!?! I always tried to briefly.........about half of the folks understood and the other half.............oh well! We weren't all that worried since our real profit was in our other services.

  5. #35
    mastertech is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    Ckucia, you have no idea what you are talking about

  6. #36
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    damn howd i miss this thread .....

    I tend to belive Geno Castellano also , he has close friends who designed the drivetrain for these cars who worked with the warranty core returns for the validation process , he's familiar with how they fail and why ....

    Over the years when i worked on the firetrucks the engineers were a valueable asset to helping me fix the trucks ,by telling me exactly how the system was designed to operate and what its tolerances were i could more accuratly troubleshoot the issues and plan for future problems ....

    bobs purpose in life is to save GM money on warranty returns and design cars that will give GM repeat "new car" customers for many years

    being a mechanic myself our purpose in life is to fix cars and make money , some of my less respectful counterparts like return business ....not saying that about you mastertech , your machine from what i can tell is beatter designed then some of the equipemnt ive seen ,since i dont have a machine and your shop is in MI im not taking any risks

  7. #37
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    Thumbs up Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    OK I THINK GENO KNOWS HIS S*** SO DOESNT EVERYONE THINK DROPPING THE PAN, LETTING EVERYTHING LEAK OUT AND SHOVING 2 TIMES THE CAPACITY OF OIL IN THE TRANNY TO LEAK RIGHT OUT AGAIN THEN CAPPING EVERYTHING UP AND REFILLING BE EFFECTIVE..... AND EARLYER POSTED

    How many millions get their transmissions flushed a year, and you know of only 3 that were damaged?

    IM GOING TO DROP MY PAN AND NOT HAVE MY TRANNY TO DO WITH ANY MACHINE THAT HAD NUMEROUS CARS ON IT.... MOST TRANNYS ARE MORE THAN LIKELY ENGINEERED TO LAST THE LIFE OF THE CAR WITH THE ORIGINAL FLUID IN IT.. FLUSH? WHY FLUSH. CHANGE THE FLUID... AND I WOULD TAKE GENOS ADVICE ANYDAY.. NOW GET OVER TO MY POST GENO HEHE

  8. #38
    Geno Castellano is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    So much of the discussion about tranny flushing and such really breaks down into several questions that easily get confused:

    Q: Is is possible to flush a tranny without causing a problem?

    A: Sure it's possible if the equipment is the correct type, the operator trained and knowlegeable, the fluid is of the correct kind, the lines cleaned between each use, etcetera.


    Q: Are ALL transmissions flushed as stated above?

    A: Absolutely not. So, the only way to avoid the "bad" flushes is to avoid transmission flushing entirely - which is why I steadfastly recommend avoiding them.


    Q: How could a tranny flush hurt the tranny?

    A: If a reverse flush forces fluid backwards through the sytem debris can enter areas normaly protected by a filter. With tolerances in the valve body measured in millionths of an inch it is easy to stick a valve with debris from flushing. Reverse flush machines should be avoided at all costs.

    A. If old fluid is used or recycled fluid is used (by an unscrupulous operator saving costs) then the obvious problems can result.

    A: Only trans fluid should go in a tranny. Machines that introduce solvents should be avoided at all costs as solvents can attack the clutch plate material or seals. Certainly the "correct" solvents wouldn't but they are expensive - and might just be replaced by something cheaper that isn't so benign without you even knowing. Or, the fluid might just be "filtered" and reused.


    Q: Is there ever a reason that Geno Castellano would recommend a tranny flush?

    A: Yes, actually. If a transmission cooler in the radiator end tank ever leaks and lets coolant (ethylene glycol) into the tranny it is sure death to the clutch plate materials. In that case, getting all the old fluid out immediately is important enough to possibly risk a tranny flush. Even then, I would rather just disconnect one cooler line and let the trans purge itself into a bucket while fresh fluid is poured into the fill port until fresh fluid comes out the cooler line.

    Flush machines have a certain use for flushing out a cooler that was previously hooked to a dying tranny that is likely full of debris. Many times, a new tranny is installed into a vehicle when the old one fails yet the old cooler is retained and just rehooked to the new unit. The fluid and debris trapped in the cooler and lines contaminates the new tranny and causes it to fail. Same with engine oil coolers. Even in this case, it is fine to just unhook the correct cooler line from the cooler and let it flow into a bucket to purge the cooler if flushing is not advised or available.

    Several people have contacted me personnally about this topic trying to convince me that THEY can do a tranny flush correctly and that it's a good thing to do. I am not doubting that some machines with some operators can do a good job of tranny "flushing" or complete fluid exchange. If you can be convinced that your case is with one of these, then flush away. If not, then be aware that for every "good" tranny flush there are probably 99 that are not good. Hard to tell them apart if you don't know how they are doing it, how the machine works or that you can stand there and watch them and know that the procedure is being done correctly.

    Transmission flushing is a money maker for shops. Be aware. Also, be aware that many people take their tranny that is suddenly misbehaving in for a flush in the fervent hope that it will cure the tranny miraculously. Nothing is too good for their "baby" when it starts to act up suddenly. So, rest assured that the last tranny hooked to that flush machine likely was a dying one that was puking debris through the fluid and into the machine where it is still lining the lines and fittings waiting to get into your transmission.

    This isn't a personal attack on any trans techs or shops. Unfortunately, the bad shops cause problems like this that reflect on the entire service industry. I know what I have seen happen. It doesn't mean all the shops are guilty but unless you can tell them apart the only safe way is to not flush.

    Dropping the pan, draining the fluid, changing the filter and refilling with fresh fluid is plenty adequate service for general maintenance.

    Tranny fluid is not like engine oil. It does not see the same temperatures as engine oil and it is not exposed to byproducts of combustion and other contaminants. It is primarily a hydraulic oil and the lubricating characteristics of the tranny are different from the engine. Tranny fluid will last a very long time if it's not overheated, whereas engine oil is always contaminated and the anti-wear additives depleted with normal use.

    Please do not contact me directly about this any more. I am very closed minded on this subject and you are wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise.

  9. #39
    robtpala is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    OK, so I had my transmission flushed. What now? Do I take it back and have it done right, drop the pan and have the filter changed?

  10. #40
    Geno Castellano is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    Quote Originally Posted by robtpala
    OK, so I had my transmission flushed. What now? Do I take it back and have it done right, drop the pan and have the filter changed?

    Was the filter changed or were you convinced that the flush negated the need for that? If it wasn't, then take it back, have them drop the pan and clean it out and have the filter replaced. Besides all the potential problems with flushing you really want to replace the filter and o-ring seals on the filter pickup tube as they will slowly lose their resiliency over time and after 10 years it is wise to replace them. Othewise, cross your fingers that no more harm was done. If your tranny takes a dump in the near future let us know.

  11. #41
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    Y don't yall want to do it the correct way? I took my 92 sedan deville to get the pan dropped and new filter and fluid put in today. I wouldn't think of flushing it. It would be like putting 87 in your tank. like flushing your coolant and not putting in barks. Yeah you can do it, but should you. Hmmm.. . how about no. But I noticed that Cadillac Dealers are doing these flushes. I had a 98 STS and they wanted to flush the trans at the dealer i got it from. but i told them no thanks. why would the dealer offer it? are they that greedy? or r they one of the places that do it correctly?

    [EDIT]

    Got her back and she's runnin nice and smooth. not that she wasn't before. but i did notice some trans oil leakin around the pan last time it was up in the air for an oil change. so since i did not know when or if it had even been changed i thought it would be a good idea to change it (122,000 est.). seems the gasket for the pan was in pretty bad shape. but now no leakin at least not yet.

  12. #42
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    Drain!! Drain!! Drain!! Drain!! Drain!!
    I was told long ago by tranny people that I know and trust to never flush (the tranny). It's like someone said earlier in this thread it will spread contaminants throughout your tranny. Guess what, I went to the lube shop and said DRAIN the tranny fluid but they flushed instead and I immediately started having tranny problems. Now I'm going to have to change the tranny myself.

    If anyone has some good advice about changing out a tranny in my 92 deville please ring out!

    Angel

  13. #43
    rlyons is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    If I told a shop to drain and refill and they flushed it they would be replacing my transmission. Take them to court if they refuse, small claims court is cheap and easy.

  14. #44
    jcautomotive is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    I have been an automotive technician since 1985 and I have flushed 100's of transmissions. I have not lost 1 yet!!! When everybody started flushing transmissions they where only using one type of fluid to flush all types of vehicles this was why Chrysler and other transmissions were failing. They were using the wrong transmission fluid with incorrect properties for the vehicle. As long as the correct fluid for the vehicle is used there is no problem. And the flush is performed properly. I have flushed transmissions with 30,000 to 150,000 miles on them and all I did was improve the performance of them. The flush that I do is done with BG Transmission products and they will WARRENTY your transmission from failing from the flush process!!!! If you use their flush chemicals and the BG fluid for the vehicle. Not flushing your transmission would like changing your oil filter every 3000 miles and add just enough oil to top it off and say that is all that is needed. Wrong!!!! I flushed a transmission with 100,000 miles on it that the transmission fluid looked like engine oil. I flushed it with BG chemicals (You use them only once) and I thought to myself I had better change the filter too. So I pulled the transmission pan off and everything that could be seen was clean including the pan that usually has a build up on friction materials in it. The customer drove the vehicle for another 5 years before they sold it. So i know flushing the transmission works as long it is done CORRECTLY.

  15. #45
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    ht4100 is online now Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Should I flush tranny at 52K????

    +1 for not flushing. I had my trans go bad shortly after flushing it in my 86 camaro in 2001 with 95,000 miles on it-never had any problem before, it shifted great, and know of other stories of this also. It's really just a money maker for shops. If you are really inclined to service your trans, just drop the pan and put a new filter in it, etc. as previously described in this thread. BTW, the only transmission that had gone bad in any car i've owned was the camaro that i had flushed. My 86 Seville has 54k miles and i bought it 3 years ago with 44k, i have never touched the trans and probably won't. Now, as for changing the engine oil, antifreeze, and coolant tabs, that's a different story.

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