Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?
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Community Lounge, Introductions and General Discussion Discussion, Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days? in General Discussion; What happened to the old Civic HF, or the Rabbit, or the diesel Rabbit to get 40+ mpg? Now days ...
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    Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    What happened to the old Civic HF, or the Rabbit, or the diesel Rabbit to get 40+ mpg?

    Now days it take an overpriced battery hauler to get 45 mpg. What made cars in the 80's more efficient than the 2000's?

    Heck, a friend of mine had 2 Olds diesels that pulled mid 30's if you kept the speed to a reasonable 65 mph. (5.7L, 82 Custom Cruiser and a 79 98).

    What gives? Even my 85 Cutlass V8 got 27 on the highway if you kept your foot out of it. And I didn't have OD, just 2.14's and THM200C. The OD cars were about the same mpg, but got a little more acceleration friendly 2.56's and OD, so you could go faster and get the same 27-27.5 mpg.

    I got 23.5 mpg with my Cutlass when I dropped in a 350 Olds (stock 77 motor, with 3A heads and stock 85 PCM minus the AIR pump). When I put in 2.56's and no OD, I was down to 21.5 mpg highway.

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by N0DIH
    What happened to the old Civic HF, or the Rabbit, or the diesel Rabbit to get 40+ mpg?

    Now days it take an overpriced battery hauler to get 45 mpg. What made cars in the 80's more efficient than the 2000's?

    Heck, a friend of mine had 2 Olds diesels that pulled mid 30's if you kept the speed to a reasonable 65 mph. (5.7L, 82 Custom Cruiser and a 79 98).

    What gives? Even my 85 Cutlass V8 got 27 on the highway if you kept your foot out of it. And I didn't have OD, just 2.14's and THM200C. The OD cars were about the same mpg, but got a little more acceleration friendly 2.56's and OD, so you could go faster and get the same 27-27.5 mpg.

    I got 23.5 mpg with my Cutlass when I dropped in a 350 Olds (stock 77 motor, with 3A heads and stock 85 PCM minus the AIR pump). When I put in 2.56's and no OD, I was down to 21.5 mpg highway.
    I think due to new safety and smog requirements, these 40+ mpg cars cannot be sold in the US. They were very light weight cars without airbags and other safety features that weigh down the new cars today. At least here in California, the new smog requirements also makes it almost impossible for a diesel vehicle to be sold.

    This is what the typical midsize car looked like in Japan when I was there last week. I don't think this car would fare well with Consumers Report offset crash (-2 out of 5 star). Also, the max speed in Japan is (80 kmh = 50 mph) so there is not as much need for powerful engines.


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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    And it is about as aerodynamic as a brick wall! Sheesh!

    You would need 250 hp just to get to 100 mph with that front end!!

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    That, and the gasoline used today doesn't have the energy potential of what it did back then! Thanks to 10% ethanol!

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    Quote Originally Posted by N0DIH
    And it is about as aerodynamic as a brick wall! Sheesh!

    You would need 250 hp just to get to 100 mph with that front end!!
    I know, it is super ugly also. The engine is 660cc/52 hp and gets 47 mpg city. The top speed is 75 mph.

    You can read more about the car here:

    http://world.honda.com/news/2003/4030904_1.html

    Also a webpage that gives a description of all Honda models:

    http://www.batfa.com/new-honda.html

    When I was in Japan, I didn't see any Honda Accords. I guess Honda Accords were made for the American market.

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    Why does it take a Hybrid to go 45 MPG? I just found it out! Cost, today it seems that everyone in the auto industry is trying to play it safe. However this is not exclusive to the auto industry of course, all business has it's bottom line, profits.

    Every technological breakthrough costs big bucks. Years ago I thought diesel offered the best opportunity to be the fuel of the future, but not today. Have you seen the cost of diesel lately? As the premier commercial fuel, any rise in costs translates immediately in the cost of producing, and transportation of everything that makes our American way of life possible. From Farm goods, to the costs of doing everyday business.

    I have been hearing a lot lately about using hydrogen powered vehicles, but it would take the implementation of a new governmental energy policy to offer incentives to get private industry to make hydrogen safe, and viable. Until this happens business has to make the most out of technology that is already working and somewhat familiar to the vast numbers of consumers.

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    Personally, I don't think hydrogen will ever take off to be a viable fuel solution. Not for the masses anyway. It will always be just like LPG gas powered cars or propane. Just not viable. In my not always so humble opinion anyway.

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    slc
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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    ((( Why does it take a Hybrid to go 45 MPG?)))

    I have found a pretty good loss of mileage with the ethanol fuels. you are actually pumping more gases into the air to get where you want to go than when you had non-ethanol fuels. If you kept mileage record when there was no ethanol and the compared to records of the ethanol crap, you will find the loss in mileage will be about 1.5 times the amount of ethanol that is put into your fuels.

    If they put 10% ethanol in your fuel, you are losing 15% mileage. So, a car that was getting 300 miles per tank now will see 255 miles. And of course, this means that to go the same amount of miles you used to get with non ethanol fuel, you are dumping 15% MORE gases into the air, or in our language, it is costing us 15% more (plus the price gouging) to go the same mileage as before ethanol.

    I used to map my mileage religously and when I found this out I became disgusted and quit.

    But these are my numbers and everyone I talk to, even though they have not mapped their mileage, ALL admit they are not getting the mileage they used to.

    Thanks ETHANOL, grow some more CORN!

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    If you are losing 15% in mileage with E10, there is something wrong, fix your car. I lose 15% running E85 in my LT1. That is 85% ethanol. I get as bad as 20% worse mileage on a bad day. Again, running E85. And I am sure my gasoline % would be down the same amount if I was running it in the same drive cycle that I did that day.

    No, it does NOT adversely effect emissions on a COMPUTER CONTROLLED O2 SENSOR FEEDBACK car. It CAN on a non feedback car/truck that is properly tuned. If so, the car needs to be retuned. 10% won't hurt mileage by 15% unless there is other things wrong.

    I did extensive fuel economy measurements on my LT1 with and without E10. And at WORST I got 0.5 mpg worse mileage, average was very close to 0.2 to 0.3 mpg worse. This is looking at all the test data over 25-35 tanks of fuel for each type from the same stations.

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    I must say you must have a marvelous car. You can run on crap and get great mileage.

    My numbers came from 3 vehicles as well as a group of other people with similar results.

    All was calulated with black and white numbers and determined accurate with only a small calculated margin of error.

    Perhaps you have one of those mystery carborators that some big company had hidden in their safe to keep away from us consumers?

    there were other reports questioning the effectiveness of ethanol gasolines recently, have you read them? they didn't have a lot good to say about the additive or the mileage that is being attained.

    As the fellow said, to get similar mileage per gallon when compared to the non ethanol cars of the past, on ethanol, you have to drive a hybred.

    Nice to hear your opinion though, thats one for the corn growers.

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    I am probably getting my fuel from the same depot as you get. I work in Libertyville and live in Darien, WI. I get my plain gas from Darien, and I was getting my E10 from the Fox Lake Jewel store gas station (they were cheapest).

    See my attached graph. This is how I do fuel economy.

    Send me all your numbers and I will put them into Minitab and take a look. I need details of when you had E10 in there vs not. You cannot do one tank with and then the next without for a comparisson, it statistically doesn't give you accurate data. Fuel economy truly is a pain the toush to do calcs on due to so many variables involved. I mean there is a lot. Wind, temp, pressure, humidity, driving conditions, fuel delivered to the tank, temp of the fuel, etc. And controlling them is a pain. So to get worthy data worth looking at, I take LOTS and LOTS of data.

    I have tons of it in the program and a ton more to put in that I haven't in a while. I keep notes on a LOT of things, with air filter I had, CAI or not, temps out (trying to get a database of daily temps and environmental conditions), which route I took to work. And of course, E0, E10 or E85. And of course, was I punchy on the gas looking for a Hemi Ram to race and beat again....

    Nothing magical, just a stock LT1 Cadillac with the factory 3.42 gears (RPO V4P). I have 10:1 compression, which Ethanol likes high compression. So if you have a car like my 91 Bonneville, it was flat out crabby on E10. It hated it. Ran like poo poo. And when I got stuck with MTBE (15%) at high alt, like 6000 feet in Colorado, it was worse. A Geo Metro could cream me 0-60. It was a dog.

    So if you have a car like that, yes, you might get worse. Mine does not. Sorry if I seemed to make it a blanket statement. And what the main variable there is, the car has less low end power (due to less BTU's) so you mash the pedal harder. So you end up making it worse that way, it really isn't the fuels fuels fault exclusively. And with my car having 3.42's, it helps too. I don't NEED to mash it to get good power. Blame our wonderful politicians in WI for passing laws that the whole state must run E10. Idiots they are....

    My 91 Cadillac Sedan DeVille wasn't too bad on it either, similar to the LT1, but it has 9.5:1 compression.

    It all comes to cyl pressure. I have car with LOTS of it. Which is why if you have more conservative gearing there is a handful of LT1 owners getting high 20's on the highway. I don't I get low 20's if I am lucky. But I had a HD towing car too. It never did get good mileage.

    Quote Originally Posted by slc
    I must say you must have a marvelous car. You can run on crap and get great mileage.

    My numbers came from 3 vehicles as well as a group of other people with similar results.

    All was calulated with black and white numbers and determined accurate with only a small calculated margin of error.

    Perhaps you have one of those mystery carborators that some big company had hidden in their safe to keep away from us consumers?

    there were other reports questioning the effectiveness of ethanol gasolines recently, have you read them? they didn't have a lot good to say about the additive or the mileage that is being attained.

    As the fellow said, to get similar mileage per gallon when compared to the non ethanol cars of the past, on ethanol, you have to drive a hybred.

    Nice to hear your opinion though, thats one for the corn growers.

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?


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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    It will never survive. $35K??? Good gosh, my LT1 only burns a $4700/yr at current gas prices driving 30K miles per year. That is high, but if I was to buy this to replace my Caddy, the cost of the car would take YEARS, like nearly 10 years to even make a profit, assuming there was zero maint costs on the car. Typically Lithium batteries can only be recharged 1000 times before they won't take it anymore. That is 3 years tops if you drive it and recharge daily. And the life gets shorter after about 200 charges.

    A good idea, but still, modern tech doesn't work for it well.

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    Well, a Diesel Focus in the UK gets the equivalent of US 33mpg in town and up to US 50mpg on the highway.
    And that's with great in-gear acceleration due to 200 and something ft/pounds of torque.

    A small petrol car over here gets around US 40mpg, sometimes as high as US 45mpg if you're VERY lucky.


    The problem is weight
    Even the small cars have wall to wall airbags, additional front crossmembers for crash tests and even Sat Nav and other fancy electrics (motors weigh loads).


    Frankly I completely fail to see the point of Hybrids when you can buy such good diesels (which are faster!).

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    Re: Why does it take a hybrid to get 45 mpg these days?

    In the STS, even at UK prices (just under $6 per US gallon) I pay around $4,500 a year to cover 12,000 miles in very heavy city traffic (think New York or LA).

    If I was doing mostly highway mileage it would be around $2,500


    The ironic thing is, the train fare to use the underground (subway) in the city instead of the car would cost me about 15% more.

    So it's cheaper for me to drive a V8 Cadillac in city traffic with just me in it than it is to use public transport. At that rate they'll never get people to use public transport in the city instead of cars (especially as most european cars cost almost half what the Caddy does to run)...

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